APA 6th using OWL rather than APA

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APA 6th using OWL rather than APA

Joseph Reagle

I'm noting some variations in the use of URLs (most especially "Retrieved From") and online types between various guides to the APA. Note: I'm not a CSL expert.

- I'm wondering if there's much of a difference between the actual APA and OWL's version?
- Even OWL [1] says blogs are supposed to have "[Web log comment]" after the title (other online guides say "[Web log message]") but I'm not seeing any such thing in my results. (Using pandoc 1.15.0.4 and pandoc-citeproc 0.7.2).
        - Looking at the CSL, I don't see anything like that. I do see:

```
        <else-if type="post-weblog webpage" match="any">
        <text variable="genre" prefix=" [" suffix="]"/>
      </else-if>
```

    This never gets used for my YAML bibliographic data though. I use genre very rarely, basically to distinguish between types of `report` and `thesis`.
- (I've ordered the actual APA 6th and should get it later this week.)

[1]: https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/560/10/



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Re: APA 6th using OWL rather than APA

Joseph Reagle
I added a genre field to my YAML data for post-weblog and it did indeed appear in brackets, but it seems odd that I'd have to add APA-specific text in the genre field to my generic YAML data.  Doesn't it make more sense to have the apa.csl have rules for that? For example:


post -> [Online forum comment]
post-weblog -> [Web log message]
videoRecording -> [Video file]


On 07/27/2015 04:15 PM, Joseph Reagle wrote:

> - Even OWL [1] says blogs are supposed to have "[Web log comment]"
> after the title (other online guides say "[Web log message]") but I'm
> not seeing any such thing in my results. (Using pandoc 1.15.0.4 and
> pandoc-citeproc 0.7.2). - Looking at the CSL, I don't see anything
> like that. I do see:
>
> ``` <else-if type="post-weblog webpage" match="any"> <text
> variable="genre" prefix=" [" suffix="]"/> </else-if> ```
>
> This never gets used for my YAML bibliographic data though. I use
> genre very rarely, basically to distinguish between types of `report`
> and `thesis`. - (I've ordered the actual APA 6th and should get it
> later this week.)


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Re: APA 6th using OWL rather than APA

Sebastian Karcher

We don't actually use OWL -- it's just the most reliable freely available resource for APA. I consult the actual APA manual whenever there's any doubt.
Two reasons we don't do the genre descriptions like you suggest:

1. We still wouldn't be able to get anywhere close to what APA wants, including for things like Video Recording where different labels might be adequate depending on the nature of the recording, so using genre is more reliable.

2. APA is one of the most frequently used styles across locales. By hardcoding English terms, we'd completely break localization.

The second of these could be addressed by allowing a significantly higher number of terms (which would also help with MLA localization), but the first one still remains, so I'm not sure to what degree I'd want to change the style even once we have the requisite terms.



On Jul 27, 2015 10:51 PM, "Joseph Reagle" <[hidden email]> wrote:
I added a genre field to my YAML data for post-weblog and it did indeed appear in brackets, but it seems odd that I'd have to add APA-specific text in the genre field to my generic YAML data.  Doesn't it make more sense to have the apa.csl have rules for that? For example:


post -> [Online forum comment]
post-weblog -> [Web log message]
videoRecording -> [Video file]


On 07/27/2015 04:15 PM, Joseph Reagle wrote:
> - Even OWL [1] says blogs are supposed to have "[Web log comment]"
> after the title (other online guides say "[Web log message]") but I'm
> not seeing any such thing in my results. (Using pandoc 1.15.0.4 and
> pandoc-citeproc 0.7.2). - Looking at the CSL, I don't see anything
> like that. I do see:
>
> ``` <else-if type="post-weblog webpage" match="any"> <text
> variable="genre" prefix=" [" suffix="]"/> </else-if> ```
>
> This never gets used for my YAML bibliographic data though. I use
> genre very rarely, basically to distinguish between types of `report`
> and `thesis`. - (I've ordered the actual APA 6th and should get it
> later this week.)


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Re: APA 6th using OWL rather than APA

Joseph Reagle
On 07/28/2015 06:02 AM, Sebastian Karcher wrote:
> 1. We still wouldn't be able to get anywhere close to what APA wants,
> including for things like Video Recording where different labels
> might be adequate depending on the nature of the recording, so using
> genre is more reliable.

But do you see the downside of loading up bibliography data with APA specific strings? I think that's a big problem: I can't use my data with other styles.

> 2. APA is one of the most frequently used styles across locales. By
> hardcoding English terms, we'd completely break localization.
>
> The second of these could be addressed by allowing a significantly
> higher number of terms (which would also help with MLA localization),
> but the first one still remains, so I'm not sure to what degree I'd
> want to change the style even once we have the requisite terms.

CSL can't can't localize such strings?

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Re: APA 6th using OWL rather than APA

Sebastian Karcher


On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 8:09 AM, Joseph Reagle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 07/28/2015 06:02 AM, Sebastian Karcher wrote:
> 1. We still wouldn't be able to get anywhere close to what APA wants,
> including for things like Video Recording where different labels
> might be adequate depending on the nature of the recording, so using
> genre is more reliable.

But do you see the downside of loading up bibliography data with APA specific strings? I think that's a big problem: I can't use my data with other styles.

I see the downside, but most other styles use the genre field much less if at all, so it's a smaller problem than you make it out to be. E.g. the Chicago styles use Genre very sparingly, mainly for theses and reports.
 

> 2. APA is one of the most frequently used styles across locales. By
> hardcoding English terms, we'd completely break localization.
>
> The second of these could be addressed by allowing a significantly
> higher number of terms (which would also help with MLA localization),
> but the first one still remains, so I'm not sure to what degree I'd
> want to change the style even once we have the requisite terms.

CSL can't can't localize such strings?

it can't currently, but even if we had all the strings (which would be technically easy, if demanding on translations), we'd have to have a way to actually call those terms, which -- since APA is very fond of putting very specific details in square brackets -- I don't really see how we can do.
 

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Re: APA 6th using OWL rather than APA

Joseph Reagle-4
In reply to this post by Joseph Reagle
 
So I've included APA genre strings in the genre field of my YAML bibliography (below). However, with apa.csl the genre string is not rendered in brackets but as:

```
martin_r. (2011, October 29). Elementary level geekiness at best. Amazon. Online forum comment. Retrieved from http://www.amazon.com/review/RC4V08Z8NW6DW/
```



---
references:
- id: martin_r2011elg
  type: post
  genre: Online forum comment
  author:
  - family: "martin_r"
  container-title: "Amazon"
  custom2: "fake.mm"
  issued:
    year: 2011
    month: 10
    day: 29
  keyword: "gender"
  title: "Elementary level geekiness at best"
  URL: "http://www.amazon.com/review/RC4V08Z8NW6DW/"
  accessed:
    year: 2014
    month: 02
    day: 13
...

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Re: APA 6th using OWL rather than APA

Brenton Wiernik
apa.csl uses the 'medium' variable, not the 'genre' variable for the special format square bracket labels.
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Re: APA 6th using OWL rather than APA

Joseph Reagle
In the past few years (I asked about this in July 2015) has any progress been made on the need for style-specific genre strings?

As I prepare my next book manuscript using `chicago-fullnote-bibliography`, I'm wondering if I still have to go in and replace the APA-specific genre strings in my bibliographic data?

For example, for APA papers I do below, but these strings also appear when I use Chicago, which is obviously wrong.

It'd be great if I didn't have to manually convert my bibliographic data every time I switch styles. (For example, in one day I might work on the book and an article.)


On Jul 27, 2015 10:51 PM, "Joseph Reagle" <joseph.2011@...> wrote:
> I added a genre field to my YAML data for post-weblog and it did indeed
> appear in brackets, but it seems odd that I'd have to add APA-specific text
> in the genre field to my generic YAML data.  Doesn't it make more sense to
> have the apa.csl have rules for that? For example:
>
>
> post -> [Online forum comment]
> post-weblog -> [Web log message]
> videoRecording -> [Video file]

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Re: APA 6th using OWL rather than APA

Bruce D'Arcus-3
Seems the thread started with "would be nice to have this feature" but came to a stopped at "we don't really have a clear idea how to implement it generally."

So I'd say no ;-)

But did you see bwiernik's note?

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 9:42 AM Joseph Reagle <[hidden email]> wrote:
In the past few years (I asked about this in July 2015) has any progress been made on the need for style-specific genre strings?

As I prepare my next book manuscript using `chicago-fullnote-bibliography`, I'm wondering if I still have to go in and replace the APA-specific genre strings in my bibliographic data?

For example, for APA papers I do below, but these strings also appear when I use Chicago, which is obviously wrong.

It'd be great if I didn't have to manually convert my bibliographic data every time I switch styles. (For example, in one day I might work on the book and an article.)


On Jul 27, 2015 10:51 PM, "Joseph Reagle" <joseph.2011@...> wrote:
> I added a genre field to my YAML data for post-weblog and it did indeed
> appear in brackets, but it seems odd that I'd have to add APA-specific text
> in the genre field to my generic YAML data.  Doesn't it make more sense to
> have the apa.csl have rules for that? For example:
>
>
> post -> [Online forum comment]
> post-weblog -> [Web log message]
> videoRecording -> [Video file]

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Re: APA 6th using OWL rather than APA

Sebastian Karcher
I actually think I know now how we'd implement this and we do this for similar cases:
E.g. for the APA case, we'd test for the content of medium and where it's present we print that and where it's empty we print a localized term based on CSL item type. That'll give use ~80% localization of this scenario at no cost to the ability to generate accurate citations and relatively limited strain on translations.

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 10:33 AM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]> wrote:
Seems the thread started with "would be nice to have this feature" but came to a stopped at "we don't really have a clear idea how to implement it generally."

So I'd say no ;-)

But did you see bwiernik's note?

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 9:42 AM Joseph Reagle <[hidden email]> wrote:
In the past few years (I asked about this in July 2015) has any progress been made on the need for style-specific genre strings?

As I prepare my next book manuscript using `chicago-fullnote-bibliography`, I'm wondering if I still have to go in and replace the APA-specific genre strings in my bibliographic data?

For example, for APA papers I do below, but these strings also appear when I use Chicago, which is obviously wrong.

It'd be great if I didn't have to manually convert my bibliographic data every time I switch styles. (For example, in one day I might work on the book and an article.)


On Jul 27, 2015 10:51 PM, "Joseph Reagle" <joseph.2011@...> wrote:
> I added a genre field to my YAML data for post-weblog and it did indeed
> appear in brackets, but it seems odd that I'd have to add APA-specific text
> in the genre field to my generic YAML data.  Doesn't it make more sense to
> have the apa.csl have rules for that? For example:
>
>
> post -> [Online forum comment]
> post-weblog -> [Web log message]
> videoRecording -> [Video file]

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Re: APA 6th using OWL rather than APA

Joseph Reagle
In reply to this post by Bruce D'Arcus-3
On 12/5/17 10:33 AM, Bruce D'Arcus wrote:
> Seems the thread started with "would be nice to have this feature"
> but came to a stopped at "we don't really have a clear idea how to
> implement it generally."
>
> So I'd say no ;-)

I asked because concerns were raised about the internationalization of such strings, and I don't know if there's been progress there.
(Absent a nice system, I've argued its better to have variant styles than to have users having to tweak all these things manually.)
This also confused me because lots of styles have genre specific strings (e.g., Chicago will add "(blog)"), but I did the hack and moved on. I don't know if there's been a fix or if norms for CSL's have changed since then.

> But did you see bwiernik's note?

To use the medium tag instead? That's fine for APA, but other CSLs (e.g., chicago-fullnote-bibliography-16th-edition.csl and chicago-fullnote-bibliography.csl) still render the medium field, so I am still getting APA-specific gunk in my Chicago notes. Did I misunderstand?


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Re: APA 6th using OWL rather than APA

Brenton Wiernik
Joseph Reagle wrote
>> But did you see bwiernik's note?
>
> To use the medium tag instead? That's fine for APA, but other CSLs (e.g.,
> chicago-fullnote-bibliography-16th-edition.csl and
> chicago-fullnote-bibliography.csl) still render the medium field, so I am
> still getting APA-specific gunk in my Chicago notes. Did I misunderstand?

To be clear, that was comment was mostly pointing out to get proper
APA-style format labels in brackets with apa.csl, you should use medium, not
genre. It wasn't necessarily intended as a solution to the broader problem
(though I don't recall if the Chicago CSL styles at the time included medium
or not).

-------

Sebastian's recommendation to test for medium and then to supply a localized
fallback term based on item type has worked well in APA and a few other
styles for the last few years. Adopting this generally would require locale
terms for each item type--I believe that addition is widely agreed to at
this point.

It would also be good to clarify the use of genre and medium in styles and
with various client programs. Generally, both citation styles and client
programs use genre mostly to specify subtypes within an item type (most
commonly type of thesis, report, or manuscript), though the specification
also gives examples of using it for film or book genres (this strikes me as
very odd mixing of information within a variable). Mendeley uses genre in
this way for books, Zotero uses it this way for films and computer programs
(programming language).

Citation styles rarely use medium and always as a descriptor for the format
or medium of the item. Medium seems most appropriate for descriptions like
"E-book", "Video recording", "Forum post", "Computer program and
accompanying manual", etc. Zotero uses medium for physical
descriptions/formats of graphic, song, motion_picture, broadcast, and
interview, as well as for the operating system of computer programs.
Mendeley doesn't use medium at all.

In retrospect, it seems like medium might have been a better choice to use
for all format and subtype information (i.e., things like type of thesis,
report, forum post, etc.), rather than using genre for such information for
some item types (report, post, thesis, etc.) and medium for others (graphic,
song, etc.), while also using genre to provide information about item topic
(topical genre for book, song, motion_picture, etc., but also potentially
things like kind of computer program [reference management, statistical
analysis, etc.] or purpose of interview or letter).

In some styles such as APA, because genre and medium are sometimes used
inconsistently across item types (sometimes they are interchangeable in how
the variables are interpreted, sometimes not), conditional logic is needed
to test for genre and/or medium in various places to avoid double-printing
information.

Moving forward, it seems like using medium for these sorts of terms creates
the least friction. If anything can be done to make usage of genre/medium
more consistent in client programs, that would be ideal, but would be
difficult.



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Re: APA 6th using OWL rather than APA

Sebastian Karcher
100% agreement with everything Brenton says. Getting genre vs. medium right is tricky and potentially costly (though I guess we could handle this with field mapping, e.g. in Zotero mapping Report/Thesis type to medium instead of genre).

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 12:45 PM, bwiernik <[hidden email]> wrote:
Joseph Reagle wrote
>> But did you see bwiernik's note?
>
> To use the medium tag instead? That's fine for APA, but other CSLs (e.g.,
> chicago-fullnote-bibliography-16th-edition.csl and
> chicago-fullnote-bibliography.csl) still render the medium field, so I am
> still getting APA-specific gunk in my Chicago notes. Did I misunderstand?

To be clear, that was comment was mostly pointing out to get proper
APA-style format labels in brackets with apa.csl, you should use medium, not
genre. It wasn't necessarily intended as a solution to the broader problem
(though I don't recall if the Chicago CSL styles at the time included medium
or not).

-------

Sebastian's recommendation to test for medium and then to supply a localized
fallback term based on item type has worked well in APA and a few other
styles for the last few years. Adopting this generally would require locale
terms for each item type--I believe that addition is widely agreed to at
this point.

It would also be good to clarify the use of genre and medium in styles and
with various client programs. Generally, both citation styles and client
programs use genre mostly to specify subtypes within an item type (most
commonly type of thesis, report, or manuscript), though the specification
also gives examples of using it for film or book genres (this strikes me as
very odd mixing of information within a variable). Mendeley uses genre in
this way for books, Zotero uses it this way for films and computer programs
(programming language).

Citation styles rarely use medium and always as a descriptor for the format
or medium of the item. Medium seems most appropriate for descriptions like
"E-book", "Video recording", "Forum post", "Computer program and
accompanying manual", etc. Zotero uses medium for physical
descriptions/formats of graphic, song, motion_picture, broadcast, and
interview, as well as for the operating system of computer programs.
Mendeley doesn't use medium at all.

In retrospect, it seems like medium might have been a better choice to use
for all format and subtype information (i.e., things like type of thesis,
report, forum post, etc.), rather than using genre for such information for
some item types (report, post, thesis, etc.) and medium for others (graphic,
song, etc.), while also using genre to provide information about item topic
(topical genre for book, song, motion_picture, etc., but also potentially
things like kind of computer program [reference management, statistical
analysis, etc.] or purpose of interview or letter).

In some styles such as APA, because genre and medium are sometimes used
inconsistently across item types (sometimes they are interchangeable in how
the variables are interpreted, sometimes not), conditional logic is needed
to test for genre and/or medium in various places to avoid double-printing
information.

Moving forward, it seems like using medium for these sorts of terms creates
the least friction. If anything can be done to make usage of genre/medium
more consistent in client programs, that would be ideal, but would be
difficult.



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Re: APA 6th using OWL rather than APA

Joseph Reagle
In reply to this post by Brenton Wiernik
On 12/5/17 12:45 PM, bwiernik wrote:
> To be clear, that was comment was mostly pointing out to get proper
> APA-style format labels in brackets with apa.csl, you should use medium, not
> genre.

Okay, thanks.
 
> Sebastian's recommendation to test for medium and then to supply a localized
> fallback term based on item type has worked well in APA and a few other
> styles for the last few years. Adopting this generally would require locale
> terms for each item type--I believe that addition is widely agreed to at
> this point.

I don't expect genre and medium are likely to go away, and if we could get everyone on the same page about the difference, that would be great.
In any case, I continue to believe it makes most sense to put style-specific strings in the styles; then the question is how to best achieve I18N...?

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