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French particles

fbennett
There has been another comment on name particles, for French:

    https://forums.zotero.org/discussion/33082/french-name-particles/#Item_1

I'm not sure how discriminate treatment of lowercase and uppercase particles aligns with the schema. If the list can provide guidance, it would be great: if the CSL position is that we should always treat uppercase particles as part of the name, I can set that up; if the schema doesn't cover it, and French specifically requires it, I guess it will need to be specified.


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Re: French particles

Bruce D'Arcus-3
Isn't that a Zotero name parsing issue; not a CSL design issue?

On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 8:40 PM, Frank Bennett <[hidden email]> wrote:

> There has been another comment on name particles, for French:
>
>     https://forums.zotero.org/discussion/33082/french-name-particles/#Item_1
>
> I'm not sure how discriminate treatment of lowercase and uppercase particles
> aligns with the schema. If the list can provide guidance, it would be great:
> if the CSL position is that we should always treat uppercase particles as
> part of the name, I can set that up; if the schema doesn't cover it, and
> French specifically requires it, I guess it will need to be specified.
>
>
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Re: French particles

aurimas
I don't think it's a Zotero issue. Zotero supplies the last name correctly (with the non-dropping particle attached). It's up to CSL to decide where this should sort in the bibliography.
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Re: French particles

Charles Parnot
I think what Bruce meant is that it’s up to the client (Zotero parser) to decide which part of a name is a dropping particle or a non-dropping particle. I agree with that.

On Nov 13, 2013, at 5:48 PM, aurimas <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I don't think it's a Zotero issue. Zotero supplies the last name correctly
> (with the non-dropping particle attached). It's up to CSL to decide where
> this should sort in the bibliography.
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://xbiblio-devel.2463403.n2.nabble.com/French-particles-tp7578826p7578828.html
> Sent from the xbiblio-devel mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: French particles

aurimas
But I thought there was no question that this is a non-dropping particle (i.e. it should always be displayed with the last name), but the sorting in bibliography is not always according to the particle. From the post on the forums linked in the initial message:

In French, names must be classified according to the letter of the nam when the particle is lower case (example: de Villepin is found in V in the index), but according to the particle when it is higher case (example: De Maison is found in D). However, Zotero is always classifying according to the names in the bibliography, never according to the particles. It is possible to change it?


On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Charles Parnot <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think what Bruce meant is that it’s up to the client (Zotero parser) to decide which part of a name is a dropping particle or a non-dropping particle. I agree with that.

On Nov 13, 2013, at 5:48 PM, aurimas <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I don't think it's a Zotero issue. Zotero supplies the last name correctly
> (with the non-dropping particle attached). It's up to CSL to decide where
> this should sort in the bibliography.
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://xbiblio-devel.2463403.n2.nabble.com/French-particles-tp7578826p7578828.html
> Sent from the xbiblio-devel mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: French particles

aurimas
Nvm, I see what you're saying. Zotero should be parsing out "de" in "de Villepin" and placing it in the non-dropping-particle, but should leave "De" in "De Maison" as part of the family name. Is that right?


On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 11:19 AM, Aurimas Vinckevicius <[hidden email]> wrote:
But I thought there was no question that this is a non-dropping particle (i.e. it should always be displayed with the last name), but the sorting in bibliography is not always according to the particle. From the post on the forums linked in the initial message:

In French, names must be classified according to the letter of the nam when the particle is lower case (example: de Villepin is found in V in the index), but according to the particle when it is higher case (example: De Maison is found in D). However, Zotero is always classifying according to the names in the bibliography, never according to the particles. It is possible to change it?


On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Charles Parnot <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think what Bruce meant is that it’s up to the client (Zotero parser) to decide which part of a name is a dropping particle or a non-dropping particle. I agree with that.

On Nov 13, 2013, at 5:48 PM, aurimas <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I don't think it's a Zotero issue. Zotero supplies the last name correctly
> (with the non-dropping particle attached). It's up to CSL to decide where
> this should sort in the bibliography.
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://xbiblio-devel.2463403.n2.nabble.com/French-particles-tp7578826p7578828.html
> Sent from the xbiblio-devel mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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twitter: @cparnot


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Re: French particles

fbennett
Bruce had it to a "t", I wasn't thinking this through.

The OP just needed to distinguish dropping from non-dropping particles
in their data, which is already handled by the client UI. Gracile
spotted the issue, and user reports that the problem is solved.

Sorry for the unnecessary traffic.

Frank



On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 2:28 AM, Aurimas Vinckevicius
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Nvm, I see what you're saying. Zotero should be parsing out "de" in "de
> Villepin" and placing it in the non-dropping-particle, but should leave "De"
> in "De Maison" as part of the family name. Is that right?
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 11:19 AM, Aurimas Vinckevicius
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> But I thought there was no question that this is a non-dropping particle
>> (i.e. it should always be displayed with the last name), but the sorting in
>> bibliography is not always according to the particle. From the post on the
>> forums linked in the initial message:
>>
>>> In French, names must be classified according to the letter of the nam
>>> when the particle is lower case (example: de Villepin is found in V in the
>>> index), but according to the particle when it is higher case (example: De
>>> Maison is found in D). However, Zotero is always classifying according to
>>> the names in the bibliography, never according to the particles. It is
>>> possible to change it?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Charles Parnot
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> I think what Bruce meant is that it’s up to the client (Zotero parser) to
>>> decide which part of a name is a dropping particle or a non-dropping
>>> particle. I agree with that.
>>>
>>> On Nov 13, 2013, at 5:48 PM, aurimas <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> > I don't think it's a Zotero issue. Zotero supplies the last name
>>> > correctly
>>> > (with the non-dropping particle attached). It's up to CSL to decide
>>> > where
>>> > this should sort in the bibliography.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > View this message in context:
>>> > http://xbiblio-devel.2463403.n2.nabble.com/French-particles-tp7578826p7578828.html
>>> > Sent from the xbiblio-devel mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>> >
>>> >
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>>> > server.
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>>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>>>
>>> --
>>> Charles Parnot
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://app.net/cparnot
>>> twitter: @cparnot
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: French particles

rmzelle
Administrator
It would be good to have a "knowledge base" Zotero dokuwiki page on the proper entry of names with particles, with an explanation on how they get parsed from the two-field name fields.

Rintze

On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 3:33 PM, Frank Bennett <[hidden email]> wrote:
Bruce had it to a "t", I wasn't thinking this through.

The OP just needed to distinguish dropping from non-dropping particles
in their data, which is already handled by the client UI. Gracile
spotted the issue, and user reports that the problem is solved.

Sorry for the unnecessary traffic.

Frank



On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 2:28 AM, Aurimas Vinckevicius
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Nvm, I see what you're saying. Zotero should be parsing out "de" in "de
> Villepin" and placing it in the non-dropping-particle, but should leave "De"
> in "De Maison" as part of the family name. Is that right?
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 11:19 AM, Aurimas Vinckevicius
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> But I thought there was no question that this is a non-dropping particle
>> (i.e. it should always be displayed with the last name), but the sorting in
>> bibliography is not always according to the particle. From the post on the
>> forums linked in the initial message:
>>
>>> In French, names must be classified according to the letter of the nam
>>> when the particle is lower case (example: de Villepin is found in V in the
>>> index), but according to the particle when it is higher case (example: De
>>> Maison is found in D). However, Zotero is always classifying according to
>>> the names in the bibliography, never according to the particles. It is
>>> possible to change it?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Charles Parnot
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> I think what Bruce meant is that it’s up to the client (Zotero parser) to
>>> decide which part of a name is a dropping particle or a non-dropping
>>> particle. I agree with that.
>>>
>>> On Nov 13, 2013, at 5:48 PM, aurimas <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> > I don't think it's a Zotero issue. Zotero supplies the last name
>>> > correctly
>>> > (with the non-dropping particle attached). It's up to CSL to decide
>>> > where
>>> > this should sort in the bibliography.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > View this message in context:
>>> > http://xbiblio-devel.2463403.n2.nabble.com/French-particles-tp7578826p7578828.html
>>> > Sent from the xbiblio-devel mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> > DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
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>>> > server.
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>>> > xbiblio-devel mailing list
>>> > [hidden email]
>>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>>>
>>> --
>>> Charles Parnot
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://app.net/cparnot
>>> twitter: @cparnot
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>>
>>
>
>
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