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Locale files: Use ordinal instead of suffix="." in some date formats

Nick Bart
Date formats in some locales, including Danish, German, Hungarian and
others, contain dots, as, e.g., Danish "1. Marts 2013".

CSL locale files specify such date formats as

  <date form="text">
    <date-part name="day" suffix=". "/>
    <date-part name="month" suffix=" "/>
    <date-part name="year"/>
  </date>

The number, e.g., "1.", however is not really a cardinal number with a
suffix, but rather an ordinal.

If the ordinal suffix is defined as <term name="ordinal">.</term>,
there usually is no difference in output between using

    <date-part name="day" suffix=". "/>

and

    <date-part name="day" form="ordinal" suffix=" "/>

Only when trying to format date ranges, this difference becomes
crucial: Both citeproc-js and pandoc-citeproc do not output the
expected "1.–2. Marts 2013", but "1–2. Marts 2013".

(On pandoc-citeproc, see
https://github.com/jgm/pandoc-citeproc/issues/12 and
https://github.com/jgm/pandoc-citeproc/issues/18; for two citeproc-js
tests see https://gist.github.com/nickbart1980/8271897)

It seems the processors are behaving as expected: the first suffix in
a range is removed (alternatively, you could say only one suffix is
rendered after the day range) – and it has to be, or else you'd get
"March 1,–2, 2012" in en-US.

Thus, if all dots must be kept with their numbers, as is the case for
Danish, German, Hungarian, and other dates, the number format must not
be defined as number plus suffix ".", but as ordinal number (with the
ordinal suffix defined, elsewhere, as ".").

Thus I'd like to propose the following:

1) in all CSL locale files where '<term name="ordinal">.</term>', and
where in '<date-part name="day" ...>' and '<date-part name="month"
...>' definitions the 'suffix=' element contains a dot, add
'form="ordinal"' or 'form= "ordinal-leading-zeros"' (see below) to the
definition, and remove the dot from the suffix element.

2) add the value "ordinal-leading-zeros" to the form attribute for
date-parts day and month to enable leading zeros in date formats such
as "01.03.2013" and "01.–23.03.2013".

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Re: Locale files: Use ordinal instead of suffix="." in some date formats

rmzelle
Administrator
On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 4:11 PM, Nick Bart <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thus I'd like to propose the following:
>
> 1) in all CSL locale files where '<term name="ordinal">.</term>', and
> where in '<date-part name="day" ...>' and '<date-part name="month"
> ...>' definitions the 'suffix=' element contains a dot, add
> 'form="ordinal"' or 'form= "ordinal-leading-zeros"' (see below) to the
> definition, and remove the dot from the suffix element.
>
> 2) add the value "ordinal-leading-zeros" to the form attribute for
> date-parts day and month to enable leading zeros in date formats such
> as "01.03.2013" and "01.–23.03.2013".

As you're probably aware, the value "ordinal-leading-zeros" currently
doesn't exist in CSL. I've read your pandoc tickets and googled a bit,
and I'm not yet convinced that the periods in dates like "01.03.2013"
truly represent ordinals suffixes. The entire format also has been
deprecated (search e.g. for "DIN 5008" in
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/iso-time.html ; or see the entry for
Germany at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_format_by_country ), so
I'm not ready to add this attribute value right now. My opinion can be
easily swayed if an authoritative source is available, of course.

For all non-numeric dates, I agree that we should remove the suffix
from the "day" date-part and rely on ordinal suffixes instead for the
appropriate locales. Nick, can you open a pull request for the
"locales" repo?

Rintze

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Re: Locale files: Use ordinal instead of suffix="." in some date formats

Sebastian Karcher
Rintze - you only mean  01.03.2013, right? Because 1.3.2013 is most certainly still the standard date format in Germany, no matter what the DIN says. And it's read as "Erster Dritter 2013", so these are ordinals. Not sure about the leading zeros either, though.


On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 9:40 PM, Rintze Zelle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 4:11 PM, Nick Bart <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Thus I'd like to propose the following:
>
> 1) in all CSL locale files where '<term name="ordinal">.</term>', and
> where in '<date-part name="day" ...>' and '<date-part name="month"
> ...>' definitions the 'suffix=' element contains a dot, add
> 'form="ordinal"' or 'form= "ordinal-leading-zeros"' (see below) to the
> definition, and remove the dot from the suffix element.
>
> 2) add the value "ordinal-leading-zeros" to the form attribute for
> date-parts day and month to enable leading zeros in date formats such
> as "01.03.2013" and "01.–23.03.2013".

As you're probably aware, the value "ordinal-leading-zeros" currently
doesn't exist in CSL. I've read your pandoc tickets and googled a bit,
and I'm not yet convinced that the periods in dates like "01.03.2013"
truly represent ordinals suffixes. The entire format also has been
deprecated (search e.g. for "DIN 5008" in
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/iso-time.html ; or see the entry for
Germany at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_format_by_country ), so
I'm not ready to add this attribute value right now. My opinion can be
easily swayed if an authoritative source is available, of course.

For all non-numeric dates, I agree that we should remove the suffix
from the "day" date-part and rely on ordinal suffixes instead for the
appropriate locales. Nick, can you open a pull request for the
"locales" repo?

Rintze

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Northwestern University

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Re: Locale files: Use ordinal instead of suffix="." in some date formats

rmzelle
Administrator
So we would need "ordinal" as an additional option for the "month" date-part as well?

Rintze

On Monday, January 6, 2014, Sebastian Karcher wrote:
Rintze - you only mean  01.03.2013, right? Because 1.3.2013 is most certainly still the standard date format in Germany, no matter what the DIN says. And it's read as "Erster Dritter 2013", so these are ordinals. Not sure about the leading zeros either, though.


On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 9:40 PM, Rintze Zelle <<a href="javascript:_e({}, &#39;cvml&#39;, &#39;rintze.zelle@gmail.com&#39;);" target="_blank">rintze.zelle@...> wrote:
On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 4:11 PM, Nick Bart <<a href="javascript:_e({}, &#39;cvml&#39;, &#39;nickbart1980@gmail.com&#39;);" target="_blank">nickbart1980@...> wrote:
> Thus I'd like to propose the following:
>
> 1) in all CSL locale files where '<term name="ordinal">.</term>', and
> where in '<date-part name="day" ...>' and '<date-part name="month"
> ...>' definitions the 'suffix=' element contains a dot, add
> 'form="ordinal"' or 'form= "ordinal-leading-zeros"' (see below) to the
> definition, and remove the dot from the suffix element.
>
> 2) add the value "ordinal-leading-zeros" to the form attribute for
> date-parts day and month to enable leading zeros in date formats such
> as "01.03.2013" and "01.–23.03.2013".

As you're probably aware, the value "ordinal-leading-zeros" currently
doesn't exist in CSL. I've read your pandoc tickets and googled a bit,
and I'm not yet convinced that the periods in dates like "01.03.2013"
truly represent ordinals suffixes. The entire format also has been
deprecated (search e.g. for "DIN 5008" in
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/iso-time.html ; or see the entry for
Germany at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_format_by_country ), so
I'm not ready to add this attribute value right now. My opinion can be
easily swayed if an authoritative source is available, of course.

For all non-numeric dates, I agree that we should remove the suffix
from the "day" date-part and rely on ordinal suffixes instead for the
appropriate locales. Nick, can you open a pull request for the
"locales" repo?

Rintze

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Re: Locale files: Use ordinal instead of suffix="." in some date formats

Sebastian Karcher
Ah you're right. If we're going that route - yes. I also don't have strong feelings on this, but I think what Nick says makes sense and the only reason it hasn't come up before is that Zotero et al don't pass on range data to the citeprocs, so this will likely become more important once they do.


On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 9:56 PM, Rintze Zelle <[hidden email]> wrote:
So we would need "ordinal" as an additional option for the "month" date-part as well?

Rintze

On Monday, January 6, 2014, Sebastian Karcher wrote:
Rintze - you only mean  01.03.2013, right? Because 1.3.2013 is most certainly still the standard date format in Germany, no matter what the DIN says. And it's read as "Erster Dritter 2013", so these are ordinals. Not sure about the leading zeros either, though.


On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 9:40 PM, Rintze Zelle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 4:11 PM, Nick Bart <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Thus I'd like to propose the following:
>
> 1) in all CSL locale files where '<term name="ordinal">.</term>', and
> where in '<date-part name="day" ...>' and '<date-part name="month"
> ...>' definitions the 'suffix=' element contains a dot, add
> 'form="ordinal"' or 'form= "ordinal-leading-zeros"' (see below) to the
> definition, and remove the dot from the suffix element.
>
> 2) add the value "ordinal-leading-zeros" to the form attribute for
> date-parts day and month to enable leading zeros in date formats such
> as "01.03.2013" and "01.–23.03.2013".

As you're probably aware, the value "ordinal-leading-zeros" currently
doesn't exist in CSL. I've read your pandoc tickets and googled a bit,
and I'm not yet convinced that the periods in dates like "01.03.2013"
truly represent ordinals suffixes. The entire format also has been
deprecated (search e.g. for "DIN 5008" in
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/iso-time.html ; or see the entry for
Germany at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_format_by_country ), so
I'm not ready to add this attribute value right now. My opinion can be
easily swayed if an authoritative source is available, of course.

For all non-numeric dates, I agree that we should remove the suffix
from the "day" date-part and rely on ordinal suffixes instead for the
appropriate locales. Nick, can you open a pull request for the
"locales" repo?

Rintze

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Northwestern University

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Re: Locale files: Use ordinal instead of suffix="." in some date formats

Nick Bart
I have issued a pull request for the locale files for cs-CZ, da-DK, de-AT, de-CH, de-DE, et-EE, fi-FI, is-IS, nb-NO and nn-NO. To the best of my knowledge, all these languages use periods as ordinal indicators, these ordinal indicators must not be separated from their numbers, and the format for day ranges is "d.-d. monthname yyyy".

Other languages listed as using periods as ordinal indicators in <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinal_indicator> include Croatian, Faroese, Hungarian, Latvian, Polish, Slovak, Slovene, Serbian, and Turkish.

I have left the locale files for these unchanged for the moment:

hr-HR, sk-SK, sl-SI, and sr-RS have leading zeros in their textual day formats, so this will have to wait until CSL allows leading zeros for ordinals.

Faroese has no CSL locale file.

hu-HU and lv-LV have a YMD format, and I am not sure how ranges are handled here.

pl-PL’s textual day format currently does not contain a period (though http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_and_time_notation_in_Poland claims they are used "often").

And in tr-TR, periods seem to be used in the numerical but not the textual form (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_and_time_notation_in_Turkey).

If anyone has more specific information on any of these, please let me know.

As to leading zeros for ordinals, both in textual and numerical date formats, it seems these are used in many locales, are actually quite common, and are also specified by style files:

- Leading zeros are used in the textual day formats of current hr-HR, sk-SK, sl-SI, and sr-RS CSL locale files. All these use "." suffixes that should be changed to ordinals.

- Ordinals with leading zeros are more popular than ordinals without in a number of locales: A google search for a numerical date on German sites reports 9,110,000 results for '"01.01.2014" site:de', compared with 680,000 results for '"1.1.2014" site:de'; a similar search on Norwegian sites reports 784,000 dates with leading zeros and 38,500 without; for Finnish sites it's still 252,000 with vs. 673,000 without leading zeros, and for Czech sites 593,000 vs. 1,350,000.

- The style guide used for harvard7de.csl (German) uses leading zeros for day and month in numerical dates.

Taken together, I would say these are excellent arguments in favour of introducing the option of using leading zeros for ordinals in CSL.


On 7 January 2014 05:21, Sebastian Karcher <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ah you're right. If we're going that route - yes. I also don't have strong feelings on this, but I think what Nick says makes sense and the only reason it hasn't come up before is that Zotero et al don't pass on range data to the citeprocs, so this will likely become more important once they do.


On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 9:56 PM, Rintze Zelle <[hidden email]> wrote:
So we would need "ordinal" as an additional option for the "month" date-part as well?

Rintze

On Monday, January 6, 2014, Sebastian Karcher wrote:
Rintze - you only mean  01.03.2013, right? Because 1.3.2013 is most certainly still the standard date format in Germany, no matter what the DIN says. And it's read as "Erster Dritter 2013", so these are ordinals. Not sure about the leading zeros either, though.


On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 9:40 PM, Rintze Zelle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 4:11 PM, Nick Bart <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Thus I'd like to propose the following:
>
> 1) in all CSL locale files where '<term name="ordinal">.</term>', and
> where in '<date-part name="day" ...>' and '<date-part name="month"
> ...>' definitions the 'suffix=' element contains a dot, add
> 'form="ordinal"' or 'form= "ordinal-leading-zeros"' (see below) to the
> definition, and remove the dot from the suffix element.
>
> 2) add the value "ordinal-leading-zeros" to the form attribute for
> date-parts day and month to enable leading zeros in date formats such
> as "01.03.2013" and "01.–23.03.2013".

As you're probably aware, the value "ordinal-leading-zeros" currently
doesn't exist in CSL. I've read your pandoc tickets and googled a bit,
and I'm not yet convinced that the periods in dates like "01.03.2013"
truly represent ordinals suffixes. The entire format also has been
deprecated (search e.g. for "DIN 5008" in
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/iso-time.html ; or see the entry for
Germany at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_format_by_country ), so
I'm not ready to add this attribute value right now. My opinion can be
easily swayed if an authoritative source is available, of course.

For all non-numeric dates, I agree that we should remove the suffix
from the "day" date-part and rely on ordinal suffixes instead for the
appropriate locales. Nick, can you open a pull request for the
"locales" repo?

Rintze

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Department of Political Science
Northwestern University

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