Multiple publication dates in citations

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Multiple publication dates in citations

Chris Maloney
Hi,

We are wondering if it is possible to capture, in addition to the "standard" publication date, article-level publication dates in CSL-JSON.  A reference for what I am talking about is at the PMC Tagging Guidelines, <pub-date>, here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/pmcdoc/tagging-guidelines/article/tags.html#el-pubdate. For example, often articles are published in electronic form before the print publication comes out, and it's important that this information be captured in the citation.  

For example, see this PNAS article in PMC, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3538202/.  Note how the citation under the journal banner displays two dates;  2013-01-02 (print) and 2012-12-03 (electronic).  These show up in the MEDLINE-format export (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/?term=PMC3538202&report=MEDLINE&format=text) as the two fields:

DP  - 2013 Jan 2
PHST- 2012/12/03 [aheadofprint]

We have found the date fields of citeproc-json, described here, http://citationstyles.org/downloads/specification.html#date-variables, but none of them seems to be a good fit. Further, I noticed that when I included `original-date` in a sample JSON file, and then round-tripped it through Zotero (import, then export in the same format) that `original-date` did not survive.

Can we get some guidance on this issue?

Thanks,


Chris Maloney
NIH/NLM/NCBI (Contractor)
Building 45, 5AN.24D-22
301-594-2842



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Re: Multiple publication dates in citations

Bruce D'Arcus-3

I think we need to add a date variable to support this, as we didn't consider this case originally.

On Feb 13, 2014 10:12 AM, "Maloney, Christopher (NIH/NLM/NCBI) [C]" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

We are wondering if it is possible to capture, in addition to the "standard" publication date, article-level publication dates in CSL-JSON.  A reference for what I am talking about is at the PMC Tagging Guidelines, <pub-date>, here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/pmcdoc/tagging-guidelines/article/tags.html#el-pubdate. For example, often articles are published in electronic form before the print publication comes out, and it's important that this information be captured in the citation.

For example, see this PNAS article in PMC, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3538202/.  Note how the citation under the journal banner displays two dates;  2013-01-02 (print) and 2012-12-03 (electronic).  These show up in the MEDLINE-format export (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/?term=PMC3538202&report=MEDLINE&format=text) as the two fields:

DP  - 2013 Jan 2
PHST- 2012/12/03 [aheadofprint]

We have found the date fields of citeproc-json, described here, http://citationstyles.org/downloads/specification.html#date-variables, but none of them seems to be a good fit. Further, I noticed that when I included `original-date` in a sample JSON file, and then round-tripped it through Zotero (import, then export in the same format) that `original-date` did not survive.

Can we get some guidance on this issue?

Thanks,


Chris Maloney
NIH/NLM/NCBI (Contractor)
Building 45, 5AN.24D-22
<a href="tel:301-594-2842" value="+13015942842">301-594-2842



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Re: Multiple publication dates in citations

Sebastian Karcher
Two separate issues:
original-date is a perfectly valid CSL variable, it's just not yet implemented in Zotero. It does work in citeproc-js, though.
But as I understand it, it's intended mainly for historical works (like the 1776 in  Smith 2001[1776]) and I don't think it should be used for e-pub dates or the like.
Would we ever really need the epub date for citations? I've never seen this except when an article hasn't been published in paper yet.  In other words, I don't think CSL should be in the business of storing publication history of an item. I'm not even sure Zotero et al. should, though I'm more open to be convinced on that point.


On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 8:19 AM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think we need to add a date variable to support this, as we didn't consider this case originally.

On Feb 13, 2014 10:12 AM, "Maloney, Christopher (NIH/NLM/NCBI) [C]" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

We are wondering if it is possible to capture, in addition to the "standard" publication date, article-level publication dates in CSL-JSON.  A reference for what I am talking about is at the PMC Tagging Guidelines, <pub-date>, here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/pmcdoc/tagging-guidelines/article/tags.html#el-pubdate. For example, often articles are published in electronic form before the print publication comes out, and it's important that this information be captured in the citation.

For example, see this PNAS article in PMC, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3538202/.  Note how the citation under the journal banner displays two dates;  2013-01-02 (print) and 2012-12-03 (electronic).  These show up in the MEDLINE-format export (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/?term=PMC3538202&report=MEDLINE&format=text) as the two fields:

DP  - 2013 Jan 2
PHST- 2012/12/03 [aheadofprint]

We have found the date fields of citeproc-json, described here, http://citationstyles.org/downloads/specification.html#date-variables, but none of them seems to be a good fit. Further, I noticed that when I included `original-date` in a sample JSON file, and then round-tripped it through Zotero (import, then export in the same format) that `original-date` did not survive.

Can we get some guidance on this issue?

Thanks,


Chris Maloney
NIH/NLM/NCBI (Contractor)
Building 45, 5AN.24D-22
<a href="tel:301-594-2842" value="+13015942842" target="_blank">301-594-2842



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Northwestern University

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Re: Multiple publication dates in citations

Gregory Jordan
+1 to Sebastian's point — I was going to reply expressing largely the same sentiment.

Unless the goal is to expand the CSL data spec into a general-purpose metadata format beyond the scope of citation formatting (which is a whole other can of worms), a good question to ask when thinking about adding new variables might be "could this reasonably be used by any existing or forthcoming styles"?

Chris, I'd be interested to hear more about the technical motivations for thinking about mapping PMC data into CSL-JSON. If the goal here is to, say, create a CSL style that could format citations equivalent to the PMC banner that you referred to, then there's a nice concrete example to think about guiding the addition of a new variable (or repurposing of the existing original-date).

From my experience, very few metadata providers attempt to provide multiple accurate dates for journal articles, so any practical use will likely be less than widespread (and likely further complicated by the existing but vague original-date variable).

--greg


On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 10:35 AM, Sebastian Karcher <[hidden email]> wrote:
Two separate issues:
original-date is a perfectly valid CSL variable, it's just not yet implemented in Zotero. It does work in citeproc-js, though.
But as I understand it, it's intended mainly for historical works (like the 1776 in  Smith 2001[1776]) and I don't think it should be used for e-pub dates or the like.
Would we ever really need the epub date for citations? I've never seen this except when an article hasn't been published in paper yet.  In other words, I don't think CSL should be in the business of storing publication history of an item. I'm not even sure Zotero et al. should, though I'm more open to be convinced on that point.


On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 8:19 AM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think we need to add a date variable to support this, as we didn't consider this case originally.

On Feb 13, 2014 10:12 AM, "Maloney, Christopher (NIH/NLM/NCBI) [C]" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

We are wondering if it is possible to capture, in addition to the "standard" publication date, article-level publication dates in CSL-JSON.  A reference for what I am talking about is at the PMC Tagging Guidelines, <pub-date>, here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/pmcdoc/tagging-guidelines/article/tags.html#el-pubdate. For example, often articles are published in electronic form before the print publication comes out, and it's important that this information be captured in the citation.

For example, see this PNAS article in PMC, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3538202/.  Note how the citation under the journal banner displays two dates;  2013-01-02 (print) and 2012-12-03 (electronic).  These show up in the MEDLINE-format export (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/?term=PMC3538202&report=MEDLINE&format=text) as the two fields:

DP  - 2013 Jan 2
PHST- 2012/12/03 [aheadofprint]

We have found the date fields of citeproc-json, described here, http://citationstyles.org/downloads/specification.html#date-variables, but none of them seems to be a good fit. Further, I noticed that when I included `original-date` in a sample JSON file, and then round-tripped it through Zotero (import, then export in the same format) that `original-date` did not survive.

Can we get some guidance on this issue?

Thanks,


Chris Maloney
NIH/NLM/NCBI (Contractor)
Building 45, 5AN.24D-22
<a href="tel:301-594-2842" value="+13015942842" target="_blank">301-594-2842



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Northwestern University

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Re: Multiple publication dates in citations

Bruce D'Arcus-3
On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 10:45 AM, Gregory Jordan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Unless the goal is to expand the CSL data spec into a general-purpose metadata format beyond the scope of citation formatting (which is a whole other can of worms), a good question to ask when thinking about adding new variables might be "could this reasonably be used by any existing or forthcoming styles"?

That absolutely is always our question.

Bruce

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Re: Multiple publication dates in citations

Chris Maloney
We would need it for the NLM citation style, see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK7282/box/A33760/.  We have looked, and it doesn't appear that there is a CSL for this style yet.

Also, we're anticipating the need for some applications that might want to render citations in the same format as they appear in PMC or PubMed pages or  search results.  It's just speculation at this point, but it would be nice if  we could use one integrated solution rather than a fragmented one.

Is there a forward-compatibility mechanism built into citeproc-json, so that we could add a new field for this without breaking all of the old citation processors?  I tried adding a randomly-named sibling of 'issued', and found that zotero did not like it (rejected it when I tried to import), but that citeproc-node/citeproc-js gracefully ignored it.


Chris Maloney
NIH/NLM/NCBI (Contractor)
Building 45, 5AN.24D-22
301-594-2842


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruce D'Arcus [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 11:29 AM
> To: Gregory Jordan; development discussion for xbiblio
> Subject: Re: [xbiblio-devel] Multiple publication dates in citations
>
> On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 10:45 AM, Gregory Jordan <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Unless the goal is to expand the CSL data spec into a general-purpose
> metadata format beyond the scope of citation formatting (which is a whole
> other can of worms), a good question to ask when thinking about adding
> new variables might be "could this reasonably be used by any existing or
> forthcoming styles"?
>
> That absolutely is always our question.
>
> Bruce
>
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Re: Multiple publication dates in citations

rmzelle
Administrator
CSL currently uses a fixed set of variables. So if we would decide
that a new date variable is needed, we would need a new version of CSL
(e.g. 1.0.2), for which we would have to update the CSL schema and CSL
JSON description.

Rintze

On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 11:58 AM, Maloney, Christopher (NIH/NLM/NCBI)
[C] <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Is there a forward-compatibility mechanism built into citeproc-json, so that we could add a new field for this without breaking all of the old citation processors?  I tried adding a randomly-named sibling of 'issued', and found that zotero did not like it (rejected it when I tried to import), but that citeproc-node/citeproc-js gracefully ignored it.

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Re: Multiple publication dates in citations

aurimas
In reply to this post by Chris Maloney

> I tried adding a randomly-named sibling of 'issued', and found that zotero did not like it (rejected it when I tried to import), but that citeproc-node/citeproc-js gracefully ignored it.

Feel free to report this on Zotero forums. This should not break Zotero import if done correctly; it should be simply ignored.

On Feb 13, 2014 10:59 AM, "Maloney, Christopher (NIH/NLM/NCBI) [C]" <[hidden email]> wrote:
We would need it for the NLM citation style, see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK7282/box/A33760/.  We have looked, and it doesn't appear that there is a CSL for this style yet.

Also, we're anticipating the need for some applications that might want to render citations in the same format as they appear in PMC or PubMed pages or  search results.  It's just speculation at this point, but it would be nice if  we could use one integrated solution rather than a fragmented one.

Is there a forward-compatibility mechanism built into citeproc-json, so that we could add a new field for this without breaking all of the old citation processors?  I tried adding a randomly-named sibling of 'issued', and found that zotero did not like it (rejected it when I tried to import), but that citeproc-node/citeproc-js gracefully ignored it.


Chris Maloney
NIH/NLM/NCBI (Contractor)
Building 45, 5AN.24D-22
<a href="tel:301-594-2842" value="+13015942842">301-594-2842


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruce D'Arcus [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 11:29 AM
> To: Gregory Jordan; development discussion for xbiblio
> Subject: Re: [xbiblio-devel] Multiple publication dates in citations
>
> On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 10:45 AM, Gregory Jordan <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Unless the goal is to expand the CSL data spec into a general-purpose
> metadata format beyond the scope of citation formatting (which is a whole
> other can of worms), a good question to ask when thinking about adding
> new variables might be "could this reasonably be used by any existing or
> forthcoming styles"?
>
> That absolutely is always our question.
>
> Bruce
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> lktrk
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Re: Multiple publication dates in citations

Chris Maloney
In reply to this post by rmzelle
Following up on this,

Bruce asked:
> could this reasonably be used by any existing or forthcoming styles?

So, the answer is "yes".  As I mentioned, we would like another date field, for electronic publication date (article-level) for the NLM style.  Would it be a huge amount of work? What would be involved?  Could we help?


Chris Maloney
NIH/NLM/NCBI (Contractor)
Building 45, 5AN.24D-22
301-594-2842


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rintze Zelle [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 12:10 PM
> To: development discussion for xbiblio
> Subject: Re: [xbiblio-devel] Multiple publication dates in citations
>
> CSL currently uses a fixed set of variables. So if we would decide that a new
> date variable is needed, we would need a new version of CSL (e.g. 1.0.2), for
> which we would have to update the CSL schema and CSL JSON description.
>
> Rintze
>
> On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 11:58 AM, Maloney, Christopher (NIH/NLM/NCBI) [C]
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Is there a forward-compatibility mechanism built into citeproc-json, so
> that we could add a new field for this without breaking all of the old citation
> processors?  I tried adding a randomly-named sibling of 'issued', and found
> that zotero did not like it (rejected it when I tried to import), but that
> citeproc-node/citeproc-js gracefully ignored it.
>


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Re: Multiple publication dates in citations

Sebastian Karcher
the actual work in adding a field is relatively minimal: adding it to the specs and to the schema is very little work, adding it to the citeprocs a little more, but afaik not much, either.
The two things that actually take work is:
1. See this through in discussion of the next spec update, including making the case that this is broadly needed for citations. I'm still unsure about that, though the NLM example is helpful. It could also be used, together with the absence of a (print) publication date, as an indicator for pre-print publication in citations, so that'd be another plus.
2. It would then also have to be taken up by reference managers and that might be more of an issue. I'm not sure how happy they'd be with two additional date fields and we'll definitely do original date of publication.


On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 9:44 PM, Maloney, Christopher (NIH/NLM/NCBI) [C] <[hidden email]> wrote:
Following up on this,

Bruce asked:
> could this reasonably be used by any existing or forthcoming styles?

So, the answer is "yes".  As I mentioned, we would like another date field, for electronic publication date (article-level) for the NLM style.  Would it be a huge amount of work? What would be involved?  Could we help?


Chris Maloney
NIH/NLM/NCBI (Contractor)
Building 45, 5AN.24D-22
<a href="tel:301-594-2842" value="+13015942842">301-594-2842


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rintze Zelle [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 12:10 PM
> To: development discussion for xbiblio
> Subject: Re: [xbiblio-devel] Multiple publication dates in citations
>
> CSL currently uses a fixed set of variables. So if we would decide that a new
> date variable is needed, we would need a new version of CSL (e.g. 1.0.2), for
> which we would have to update the CSL schema and CSL JSON description.
>
> Rintze
>
> On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 11:58 AM, Maloney, Christopher (NIH/NLM/NCBI) [C]
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Is there a forward-compatibility mechanism built into citeproc-json, so
> that we could add a new field for this without breaking all of the old citation
> processors?  I tried adding a randomly-named sibling of 'issued', and found
> that zotero did not like it (rejected it when I tried to import), but that
> citeproc-node/citeproc-js gracefully ignored it.
>


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Take advantage of what the Cloud has to offer - Avoid Common Pitfalls.
Read the Whitepaper.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=121054471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
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--
Sebastian Karcher
Ph.D. Candidate
Department of Political Science
Northwestern University

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Managing the Performance of Cloud-Based Applications
Take advantage of what the Cloud has to offer - Avoid Common Pitfalls.
Read the Whitepaper.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=121054471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
xbiblio-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel