Page range delimite replacement

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Page range delimite replacement

Sylvester Keil
A quick question regarding page range delimiters.

I noticed that citeproc-js seems to replace the delimiter even when the
style does not define a page-range-format — at least that's my
inference, from the test suite, e.g.: the input for test
fullstyles_ABdNT is pages "159-181" and the expected result is "159–
181"; the style being tested (associacao-brasileira-de-normas-tecnicas)
does not have a page-range-format option.

The spec says that "If the attribute is not set, page ranges are
rendered without reformatting." — My understanding of this was that page
variable should not be touched at all, but the test case seems to
suggest that the delimiter should still be replaced.

Did I miss something here? If not (and if replacement is indeed the
preferred approach) I think this should be stated explicitly in the
spec.

Sylvester


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Re: Page range delimite replacement

rmzelle
Administrator
Good catch. Frank made hyphen-replacement independent of the use of
the "page-range-format" attribute in early 2012, and I don't think
there have been any complaints on the Zotero forums since. We probably
should adopt this, and mention it clearly in the spec.

See also https://github.com/citation-style-language/schema/issues/56#issuecomment-4436206
and https://forums.zotero.org/discussion/21831/citeproc-endashhyphen-in-bibliography-regression/

New ticket: https://github.com/citation-style-language/documentation/issues/32

Rintze

On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 10:12 AM, Sylvester Keil <[hidden email]> wrote:

> A quick question regarding page range delimiters.
>
> I noticed that citeproc-js seems to replace the delimiter even when the
> style does not define a page-range-format — at least that's my
> inference, from the test suite, e.g.: the input for test
> fullstyles_ABdNT is pages "159-181" and the expected result is "159–
> 181"; the style being tested (associacao-brasileira-de-normas-tecnicas)
> does not have a page-range-format option.
>
> The spec says that "If the attribute is not set, page ranges are
> rendered without reformatting." — My understanding of this was that page
> variable should not be touched at all, but the test case seems to
> suggest that the delimiter should still be replaced.
>
> Did I miss something here? If not (and if replacement is indeed the
> preferred approach) I think this should be stated explicitly in the
> spec.
>
> Sylvester
>
>
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Re: Page range delimite replacement

Sebastian Karcher
(I'm for changing the spec - I had always assumed this to work the way it does now and we'd need major style updates if it doesn't.)


On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 8:52 AM, Rintze Zelle <[hidden email]> wrote:
Good catch. Frank made hyphen-replacement independent of the use of
the "page-range-format" attribute in early 2012, and I don't think
there have been any complaints on the Zotero forums since. We probably
should adopt this, and mention it clearly in the spec.

See also https://github.com/citation-style-language/schema/issues/56#issuecomment-4436206
and https://forums.zotero.org/discussion/21831/citeproc-endashhyphen-in-bibliography-regression/

New ticket: https://github.com/citation-style-language/documentation/issues/32

Rintze

On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 10:12 AM, Sylvester Keil <[hidden email]> wrote:
> A quick question regarding page range delimiters.
>
> I noticed that citeproc-js seems to replace the delimiter even when the
> style does not define a page-range-format — at least that's my
> inference, from the test suite, e.g.: the input for test
> fullstyles_ABdNT is pages "159-181" and the expected result is "159–
> 181"; the style being tested (associacao-brasileira-de-normas-tecnicas)
> does not have a page-range-format option.
>
> The spec says that "If the attribute is not set, page ranges are
> rendered without reformatting." — My understanding of this was that page
> variable should not be touched at all, but the test case seems to
> suggest that the delimiter should still be replaced.
>
> Did I miss something here? If not (and if replacement is indeed the
> preferred approach) I think this should be stated explicitly in the
> spec.
>
> Sylvester
>
>
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Re: Page range delimite replacement

Sylvester Keil
In reply to this post by rmzelle
On Wed, 2014-01-22 at 10:52 -0500, Rintze Zelle wrote:
> Good catch. Frank made hyphen-replacement independent of the use of
> the "page-range-format" attribute in early 2012, and I don't think
> there have been any complaints on the Zotero forums since. We probably
> should adopt this, and mention it clearly in the spec.
>
> See also https://github.com/citation-style-language/schema/issues/56#issuecomment-4436206
> and https://forums.zotero.org/discussion/21831/citeproc-endashhyphen-in-bibliography-regression/
>
> New ticket: https://github.com/citation-style-language/documentation/issues/32

Sounds good to me; I guess it would be sufficient to add one more
sentence after the one I quoted. To make it easier for implementors we
could also enumerate exactly which characters should be replaced (my
take would be: -, en-dash, em-dash, making sure to catch things like
'--', too).

Sylvester


> On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 10:12 AM, Sylvester Keil <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > A quick question regarding page range delimiters.
> >
> > I noticed that citeproc-js seems to replace the delimiter even when the
> > style does not define a page-range-format — at least that's my
> > inference, from the test suite, e.g.: the input for test
> > fullstyles_ABdNT is pages "159-181" and the expected result is "159–
> > 181"; the style being tested (associacao-brasileira-de-normas-tecnicas)
> > does not have a page-range-format option.
> >
> > The spec says that "If the attribute is not set, page ranges are
> > rendered without reformatting." — My understanding of this was that page
> > variable should not be touched at all, but the test case seems to
> > suggest that the delimiter should still be replaced.
> >
> > Did I miss something here? If not (and if replacement is indeed the
> > preferred approach) I think this should be stated explicitly in the
> > spec.
> >
> > Sylvester
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Page range delimite replacement

rmzelle
Administrator
Sebastian, Sylvester, does either of you (or anybody else) ever
encounter item metadata that uses anything other than hyphens or
en-dashes in page ranges? Do we really have to substitute repeated
hyphens and em-dashes as well?

Rintze

On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 11:08 AM, Sylvester Keil <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Sounds good to me; I guess it would be sufficient to add one more
> sentence after the one I quoted. To make it easier for implementors we
> could also enumerate exactly which characters should be replaced (my
> take would be: -, en-dash, em-dash, making sure to catch things like
> '--', too).

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Re: Page range delimite replacement

Sebastian Karcher
I don't know about em-dashes. Repeated hyphens are common in bibtex, so they may make it into metadata.


On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 2:46 PM, Rintze Zelle <[hidden email]> wrote:
Sebastian, Sylvester, does either of you (or anybody else) ever
encounter item metadata that uses anything other than hyphens or
en-dashes in page ranges? Do we really have to substitute repeated
hyphens and em-dashes as well?

Rintze

On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 11:08 AM, Sylvester Keil <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Sounds good to me; I guess it would be sufficient to add one more
> sentence after the one I quoted. To make it easier for implementors we
> could also enumerate exactly which characters should be replaced (my
> take would be: -, en-dash, em-dash, making sure to catch things like
> '--', too).

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Re: Page range delimite replacement

Bruce D'Arcus-3
And in the TeX world, triple-dashes get replaced by em-dashes.

I haven't followed this discussion, but looking back on it, I'm a little confused by what you seem to be proposing.

Generally accepted "typographically correct" page range delimiter is an en-dash. If you want a rule, I'd say replace a dash or double-dash with an en-dash?

Sorry if I'm missing something; been a long day.






On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 4:50 PM, Sebastian Karcher <[hidden email]> wrote:
I don't know about em-dashes. Repeated hyphens are common in bibtex, so they may make it into metadata.


On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 2:46 PM, Rintze Zelle <[hidden email]> wrote:
Sebastian, Sylvester, does either of you (or anybody else) ever
encounter item metadata that uses anything other than hyphens or
en-dashes in page ranges? Do we really have to substitute repeated
hyphens and em-dashes as well?

Rintze

On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 11:08 AM, Sylvester Keil <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Sounds good to me; I guess it would be sufficient to add one more
> sentence after the one I quoted. To make it easier for implementors we
> could also enumerate exactly which characters should be replaced (my
> take would be: -, en-dash, em-dash, making sure to catch things like
> '--', too).

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Re: Page range delimite replacement

Sebastian Karcher
This is about which symbols the page-range-delimiter replaces and when. It already defaults to en-dash, that part isn't controversial.


On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 3:22 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]> wrote:
And in the TeX world, triple-dashes get replaced by em-dashes.

I haven't followed this discussion, but looking back on it, I'm a little confused by what you seem to be proposing.

Generally accepted "typographically correct" page range delimiter is an en-dash. If you want a rule, I'd say replace a dash or double-dash with an en-dash?

Sorry if I'm missing something; been a long day.






On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 4:50 PM, Sebastian Karcher <[hidden email]> wrote:
I don't know about em-dashes. Repeated hyphens are common in bibtex, so they may make it into metadata.


On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 2:46 PM, Rintze Zelle <[hidden email]> wrote:
Sebastian, Sylvester, does either of you (or anybody else) ever
encounter item metadata that uses anything other than hyphens or
en-dashes in page ranges? Do we really have to substitute repeated
hyphens and em-dashes as well?

Rintze

On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 11:08 AM, Sylvester Keil <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Sounds good to me; I guess it would be sufficient to add one more
> sentence after the one I quoted. To make it easier for implementors we
> could also enumerate exactly which characters should be replaced (my
> take would be: -, en-dash, em-dash, making sure to catch things like
> '--', too).

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Re: Page range delimite replacement

Bruce D'Arcus-3
So the controversial question is whether that list includes em-dashes (and perhaps by extension triple dashes)?

And therefore a modest change would add just add double-dashes?

I'd suggest the modest one as general approach if unsure; always easier to add things like this than remove them.

OTOH, I can't imagine why anyone would use an em-dash in a page range except to indicate the delimiter.


On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 5:29 PM, Sebastian Karcher <[hidden email]> wrote:
This is about which symbols the page-range-delimiter replaces and when. It already defaults to en-dash, that part isn't controversial.


On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 3:22 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]> wrote:
And in the TeX world, triple-dashes get replaced by em-dashes.

I haven't followed this discussion, but looking back on it, I'm a little confused by what you seem to be proposing.

Generally accepted "typographically correct" page range delimiter is an en-dash. If you want a rule, I'd say replace a dash or double-dash with an en-dash?

Sorry if I'm missing something; been a long day.






On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 4:50 PM, Sebastian Karcher <[hidden email]> wrote:
I don't know about em-dashes. Repeated hyphens are common in bibtex, so they may make it into metadata.


On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 2:46 PM, Rintze Zelle <[hidden email]> wrote:
Sebastian, Sylvester, does either of you (or anybody else) ever
encounter item metadata that uses anything other than hyphens or
en-dashes in page ranges? Do we really have to substitute repeated
hyphens and em-dashes as well?

Rintze

On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 11:08 AM, Sylvester Keil <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Sounds good to me; I guess it would be sufficient to add one more
> sentence after the one I quoted. To make it easier for implementors we
> could also enumerate exactly which characters should be replaced (my
> take would be: -, en-dash, em-dash, making sure to catch things like
> '--', too).

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Re: Page range delimite replacement

Charles Parnot
I think most people don’t care about en-dash, and won’t see the difference, so replacing any version of an en-dash with it makes sense, so they actually do the right thing without ever knowing it was a problem in the first place. The one who do care will want an en-dash and will be delighted to see you do the right thing. The ones who are really crazy will have very weird ideas about page ranges and dashes, and they should be ignored.

This is what we do in Papers: replace any occurence of any of these types of dashes with en-dash:                                                                                                   /* hyphen       */   @"\u2010"
                /* nbr hyphen   */   @"\u2011"
                /* fig dash     */   @"\u2012"
                /* en-dash      */   @"\u2013"
                /* em-dash      */   @"\u2014”

I like the idea of doing the same with multiple dashes, to get it down to just one en-dash. I had not realized this could be used, but I think it makes sense.

Charles


On Jan 23, 2014, at 11:39 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]> wrote:

> So the controversial question is whether that list includes em-dashes (and perhaps by extension triple dashes)?
>
> And therefore a modest change would add just add double-dashes?
>
> I'd suggest the modest one as general approach if unsure; always easier to add things like this than remove them.
>
> OTOH, I can't imagine why anyone would use an em-dash in a page range except to indicate the delimiter.
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 5:29 PM, Sebastian Karcher <[hidden email]> wrote:
> This is about which symbols the page-range-delimiter replaces and when. It already defaults to en-dash, that part isn't controversial.
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 3:22 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]> wrote:
> And in the TeX world, triple-dashes get replaced by em-dashes.
>
> I haven't followed this discussion, but looking back on it, I'm a little confused by what you seem to be proposing.
>
> Generally accepted "typographically correct" page range delimiter is an en-dash. If you want a rule, I'd say replace a dash or double-dash with an en-dash?
>
> Sorry if I'm missing something; been a long day.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 4:50 PM, Sebastian Karcher <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I don't know about em-dashes. Repeated hyphens are common in bibtex, so they may make it into metadata.
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 2:46 PM, Rintze Zelle <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Sebastian, Sylvester, does either of you (or anybody else) ever
> encounter item metadata that uses anything other than hyphens or
> en-dashes in page ranges? Do we really have to substitute repeated
> hyphens and em-dashes as well?
>
> Rintze
>
> On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 11:08 AM, Sylvester Keil <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Sounds good to me; I guess it would be sufficient to add one more
> > sentence after the one I quoted. To make it easier for implementors we
> > could also enumerate exactly which characters should be replaced (my
> > take would be: -, en-dash, em-dash, making sure to catch things like
> > '--', too).
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Page range delimite replacement

Sebastian Karcher
just to be clear - we have "page-range-delimiter" as an attribute of cs:style. This defaults to en-dash, but due to multiple requests from users mainly in Southern Europe, which had style guides that very explicitly required a hyphen or a non-breaking hyphen we made this customizable.
Sylvester asked about this, because the specifications currently say _not_ to do this unless page-range-format is set. They do so in two places: Unambiguously here:
> The "locator" variable is always rendered with an en-dash replacing any hyphens.
> For the "page" variable, this replacement is only performed if the
> page-range-format attribute is set on cs:style

and somewhat more ambiguously here:
> If the attribute [page-range-format] is not set, page ranges are
> rendered without reformatting.

That was the original question, and I think everyone agrees we should replace by the page-range-delimiter more generally.
The only remaining question is how broadly to do that: @Rintze - any reason why we would _not_ want to replace em-dash etc.?


On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 1:30 AM, Charles Parnot <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think most people don’t care about en-dash, and won’t see the difference, so replacing any version of an en-dash with it makes sense, so they actually do the right thing without ever knowing it was a problem in the first place. The one who do care will want an en-dash and will be delighted to see you do the right thing. The ones who are really crazy will have very weird ideas about page ranges and dashes, and they should be ignored.

This is what we do in Papers: replace any occurence of any of these types of dashes with en-dash:                                                                                                               /* hyphen       */   @"\u2010"
                /* nbr hyphen   */   @"\u2011"
                /* fig dash     */   @"\u2012"
                /* en-dash      */   @"\u2013"
                /* em-dash      */   @"\u2014”

I like the idea of doing the same with multiple dashes, to get it down to just one en-dash. I had not realized this could be used, but I think it makes sense.

Charles


On Jan 23, 2014, at 11:39 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]> wrote:

> So the controversial question is whether that list includes em-dashes (and perhaps by extension triple dashes)?
>
> And therefore a modest change would add just add double-dashes?
>
> I'd suggest the modest one as general approach if unsure; always easier to add things like this than remove them.
>
> OTOH, I can't imagine why anyone would use an em-dash in a page range except to indicate the delimiter.
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 5:29 PM, Sebastian Karcher <[hidden email]> wrote:
> This is about which symbols the page-range-delimiter replaces and when. It already defaults to en-dash, that part isn't controversial.
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 3:22 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]> wrote:
> And in the TeX world, triple-dashes get replaced by em-dashes.
>
> I haven't followed this discussion, but looking back on it, I'm a little confused by what you seem to be proposing.
>
> Generally accepted "typographically correct" page range delimiter is an en-dash. If you want a rule, I'd say replace a dash or double-dash with an en-dash?
>
> Sorry if I'm missing something; been a long day.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 4:50 PM, Sebastian Karcher <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I don't know about em-dashes. Repeated hyphens are common in bibtex, so they may make it into metadata.
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 2:46 PM, Rintze Zelle <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Sebastian, Sylvester, does either of you (or anybody else) ever
> encounter item metadata that uses anything other than hyphens or
> en-dashes in page ranges? Do we really have to substitute repeated
> hyphens and em-dashes as well?
>
> Rintze
>
> On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 11:08 AM, Sylvester Keil <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Sounds good to me; I guess it would be sufficient to add one more
> > sentence after the one I quoted. To make it easier for implementors we
> > could also enumerate exactly which characters should be replaced (my
> > take would be: -, en-dash, em-dash, making sure to catch things like
> > '--', too).
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
>
> --
> Sebastian Karcher
> Ph.D. Candidate
> Department of Political Science
> Northwestern University
>
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>
>
>
> --
> Sebastian Karcher
> Ph.D. Candidate
> Department of Political Science
> Northwestern University
>
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Northwestern University

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Re: Page range delimite replacement

Charles Parnot
Thanks for the clarification. One clarification from me on Papers as well: the delimiter is indeed en-dash by default or what is set by the CSL, so my email was really about to heartfully agree with the idea of going after anything that look like a dash to be replaced by the proper page delimiter.


On Jan 24, 2014, at 9:51 AM, Sebastian Karcher <[hidden email]> wrote:

> just to be clear - we have "page-range-delimiter" as an attribute of cs:style. This defaults to en-dash, but due to multiple requests from users mainly in Southern Europe, which had style guides that very explicitly required a hyphen or a non-breaking hyphen we made this customizable.
> Sylvester asked about this, because the specifications currently say _not_ to do this unless page-range-format is set. They do so in two places: Unambiguously here:
> > The "locator" variable is always rendered with an en-dash replacing any hyphens.
> > For the "page" variable, this replacement is only performed if the
> > page-range-format attribute is set on cs:style
>
> and somewhat more ambiguously here:
> > If the attribute [page-range-format] is not set, page ranges are
> > rendered without reformatting.
>
> That was the original question, and I think everyone agrees we should replace by the page-range-delimiter more generally.
> The only remaining question is how broadly to do that: @Rintze - any reason why we would _not_ want to replace em-dash etc.?
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 1:30 AM, Charles Parnot <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I think most people don’t care about en-dash, and won’t see the difference, so replacing any version of an en-dash with it makes sense, so they actually do the right thing without ever knowing it was a problem in the first place. The one who do care will want an en-dash and will be delighted to see you do the right thing. The ones who are really crazy will have very weird ideas about page ranges and dashes, and they should be ignored.
>
> This is what we do in Papers: replace any occurence of any of these types of dashes with en-dash:                                                                                                               /* hyphen       */   @"\u2010"
>                 /* nbr hyphen   */   @"\u2011"
>                 /* fig dash     */   @"\u2012"
>                 /* en-dash      */   @"\u2013"
>                 /* em-dash      */   @"\u2014”
>
> I like the idea of doing the same with multiple dashes, to get it down to just one en-dash. I had not realized this could be used, but I think it makes sense.
>
> Charles
>
>
> On Jan 23, 2014, at 11:39 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > So the controversial question is whether that list includes em-dashes (and perhaps by extension triple dashes)?
> >
> > And therefore a modest change would add just add double-dashes?
> >
> > I'd suggest the modest one as general approach if unsure; always easier to add things like this than remove them.
> >
> > OTOH, I can't imagine why anyone would use an em-dash in a page range except to indicate the delimiter.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 5:29 PM, Sebastian Karcher <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > This is about which symbols the page-range-delimiter replaces and when. It already defaults to en-dash, that part isn't controversial.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 3:22 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > And in the TeX world, triple-dashes get replaced by em-dashes.
> >
> > I haven't followed this discussion, but looking back on it, I'm a little confused by what you seem to be proposing.
> >
> > Generally accepted "typographically correct" page range delimiter is an en-dash. If you want a rule, I'd say replace a dash or double-dash with an en-dash?
> >
> > Sorry if I'm missing something; been a long day.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 4:50 PM, Sebastian Karcher <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I don't know about em-dashes. Repeated hyphens are common in bibtex, so they may make it into metadata.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 2:46 PM, Rintze Zelle <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Sebastian, Sylvester, does either of you (or anybody else) ever
> > encounter item metadata that uses anything other than hyphens or
> > en-dashes in page ranges? Do we really have to substitute repeated
> > hyphens and em-dashes as well?
> >
> > Rintze
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 11:08 AM, Sylvester Keil <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > Sounds good to me; I guess it would be sufficient to add one more
> > > sentence after the one I quoted. To make it easier for implementors we
> > > could also enumerate exactly which characters should be replaced (my
> > > take would be: -, en-dash, em-dash, making sure to catch things like
> > > '--', too).
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > CenturyLink Cloud: The Leader in Enterprise Cloud Services.
> > Learn Why More Businesses Are Choosing CenturyLink Cloud For
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sebastian Karcher
> > Ph.D. Candidate
> > Department of Political Science
> > Northwestern University
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > CenturyLink Cloud: The Leader in Enterprise Cloud Services.
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sebastian Karcher
> > Ph.D. Candidate
> > Department of Political Science
> > Northwestern University
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > Learn Why More Businesses Are Choosing CenturyLink Cloud For
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> --
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> http://app.net/cparnot
> twitter: @cparnot
>
>
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> Northwestern University
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Re: Page range delimite replacement

rmzelle
Administrator
In reply to this post by Sebastian Karcher
On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 3:51 AM, Sebastian Karcher
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> The only remaining question is how broadly to do that: @Rintze - any reason
> why we would _not_ want to replace em-dash etc.?

Not really. Can we agree on what should be substituted? Based on
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dash#Common_dashes,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyphen#Unicode, and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minus_sign#Character_codes , we might
want to cover:

- dashes: figure dash, en-dash, em-dash, horizontal bar
- hyphens: hyphen, hyphen-minus, soft-hyphen (maybe?), non-breaking
hyphen, hyphen bullet
- minus: minus

(substituting any occurrence of one or more of the same character)

Rintze

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Re: Page range delimite replacement

Chris Maloney
In reply to this post by rmzelle
I just came across an interesting note on the description page of Wikipedia's citation bot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Citation_bot#Page_numbers_with_hyphens), and thought it might be relevant here:

    The bot replaces hyphens with en dash in page number ranges. On rare occasions when a hyphen is
    right and an en dash is wrong (hyphen in the page number itself), manually use the hyphen HTML
    code &#8209; instead of the dash/hyphen.

So, according to this, there are edge cases where the substitution would be wrong.  I don't have any examples, but if you want to pursue it, you could leave a note on the bot talk page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Citation_bot), or contact the author (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Smith609).


Chris Maloney
NIH/NLM/NCBI (Contractor)
Building 45, 5AN.24D-22
301-594-2842


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rintze Zelle [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 4:47 PM
> To: development discussion for xbiblio
> Subject: Re: [xbiblio-devel] Page range delimite replacement
>
> Sebastian, Sylvester, does either of you (or anybody else) ever encounter
> item metadata that uses anything other than hyphens or en-dashes in page
> ranges? Do we really have to substitute repeated hyphens and em-dashes
> as well?
>
> Rintze
>
> On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 11:08 AM, Sylvester Keil <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > Sounds good to me; I guess it would be sufficient to add one more
> > sentence after the one I quoted. To make it easier for implementors we
> > could also enumerate exactly which characters should be replaced (my
> > take would be: -, en-dash, em-dash, making sure to catch things like
> > '--', too).
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> CenturyLink Cloud: The Leader in Enterprise Cloud Services.
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Re: Page range delimite replacement

Sylvester Keil
Thanks for this Chris!

In my opinion this demonstrates that we must tread very carefully when
touching user input. A similar issue arises with single and double
quotes — IIRC citeproc-js applies conversions there as well (not quotes
added by the processor, but quotes present in the original input). I
have yet to look at this in more detail, but I imagine this is
potentially even more controversial than hyphens in page numbers. Is
there an equally strong consensus for converting quotes as there is for
the page range delimiter?


On Sun, 2014-01-26 at 04:14 +0000, Maloney, Christopher (NIH/NLM/NCBI)
[C] wrote:

> I just came across an interesting note on the description page of Wikipedia's citation bot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Citation_bot#Page_numbers_with_hyphens), and thought it might be relevant here:
>
>     The bot replaces hyphens with en dash in page number ranges. On rare occasions when a hyphen is
>     right and an en dash is wrong (hyphen in the page number itself), manually use the hyphen HTML
>     code &#8209; instead of the dash/hyphen.
>
> So, according to this, there are edge cases where the substitution would be wrong.  I don't have any examples, but if you want to pursue it, you could leave a note on the bot talk page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Citation_bot), or contact the author (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Smith609).
>
>
> Chris Maloney
> NIH/NLM/NCBI (Contractor)
> Building 45, 5AN.24D-22
> 301-594-2842
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Rintze Zelle [mailto:[hidden email]]
> > Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 4:47 PM
> > To: development discussion for xbiblio
> > Subject: Re: [xbiblio-devel] Page range delimite replacement
> >
> > Sebastian, Sylvester, does either of you (or anybody else) ever encounter
> > item metadata that uses anything other than hyphens or en-dashes in page
> > ranges? Do we really have to substitute repeated hyphens and em-dashes
> > as well?
> >
> > Rintze
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 11:08 AM, Sylvester Keil <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > > Sounds good to me; I guess it would be sufficient to add one more
> > > sentence after the one I quoted. To make it easier for implementors we
> > > could also enumerate exactly which characters should be replaced (my
> > > take would be: -, en-dash, em-dash, making sure to catch things like
> > > '--', too).
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Page range delimite replacement

Sebastian Karcher
The problems with quotes and en-dashes are slightly different.

For en-dashes, the chance that auto-replace is doing something undesirable is _quite_ small. I'm sure hyphens in page numbers exist somewhere, but I have never seen one. On the other hand, technically we wouldn't need to do this, since users _could_ input en-dashes themselves in the data. However, so few people are even aware of en-dashes, and even fewer know how to type one on their computer that I think that would be a bad, bad idea (I believe bibtex requires the en-dash, usually as --, in the data. )

For quotations marks, there is a higher chance of problems - and they do come up occasionally - but it is also absolutely crucial to getting correct citations from the same data. Take an article title like: “Ain’t i a woman?”: Towards an intersectional approach to person perception and group-based harms
The above is how it's printed in the journal and I imagine most people would input it like that. Now if you cite this in APA, you want:
Goff, P. A., Thomas, M. A., & Jackson, M. C. (2008). “Ain’t i a woman?”: Towards an intersectional approach to person perception and group-based harms. Sex Roles, 59(5-6), 392–403. doi:10.1007/s11199-008-9505-4

I.e. double quotes as in the original. But in Chicago style, you want

Goff, Phillip Atiba, Margaret A. Thomas, and Matthew Christian Jackson. “‘Ain’t I a Woman?’: Towards an Intersectional Approach to Person Perception and Group-Based Harms.” Sex Roles 59, no. 5–6 (September 1, 2008): 392–403. doi:10.1007/s11199-008-9505-4.

i.e. converted single quotes. There is absolutely no alternative to having the processor do this, so yes, I do think it's necessary and should be uncontroversial.

So while, as a general issue, I agree it's tricky to auto-anything with user content, I do think we're doing the right thing here in both cases.


On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 9:30 AM, Sylvester Keil <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks for this Chris!

In my opinion this demonstrates that we must tread very carefully when
touching user input. A similar issue arises with single and double
quotes — IIRC citeproc-js applies conversions there as well (not quotes
added by the processor, but quotes present in the original input). I
have yet to look at this in more detail, but I imagine this is
potentially even more controversial than hyphens in page numbers. Is
there an equally strong consensus for converting quotes as there is for
the page range delimiter?


On Sun, 2014-01-26 at 04:14 +0000, Maloney, Christopher (NIH/NLM/NCBI)
[C] wrote:
> I just came across an interesting note on the description page of Wikipedia's citation bot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Citation_bot#Page_numbers_with_hyphens), and thought it might be relevant here:
>
>     The bot replaces hyphens with en dash in page number ranges. On rare occasions when a hyphen is
>     right and an en dash is wrong (hyphen in the page number itself), manually use the hyphen HTML
>     code &#8209; instead of the dash/hyphen.
>
> So, according to this, there are edge cases where the substitution would be wrong.  I don't have any examples, but if you want to pursue it, you could leave a note on the bot talk page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Citation_bot), or contact the author (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Smith609).
>
>
> Chris Maloney
> NIH/NLM/NCBI (Contractor)
> Building 45, 5AN.24D-22
> <a href="tel:301-594-2842" value="+13015942842">301-594-2842
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Rintze Zelle [mailto:[hidden email]]
> > Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 4:47 PM
> > To: development discussion for xbiblio
> > Subject: Re: [xbiblio-devel] Page range delimite replacement
> >
> > Sebastian, Sylvester, does either of you (or anybody else) ever encounter
> > item metadata that uses anything other than hyphens or en-dashes in page
> > ranges? Do we really have to substitute repeated hyphens and em-dashes
> > as well?
> >
> > Rintze
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 11:08 AM, Sylvester Keil <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > > Sounds good to me; I guess it would be sufficient to add one more
> > > sentence after the one I quoted. To make it easier for implementors we
> > > could also enumerate exactly which characters should be replaced (my
> > > take would be: -, en-dash, em-dash, making sure to catch things like
> > > '--', too).
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > CenturyLink Cloud: The Leader in Enterprise Cloud Services.
> > Learn Why More Businesses Are Choosing CenturyLink Cloud For Critical
> > Workloads, Development Environments & Everything In Between.
> > Get a Quote or Start a Free Trial Today.
> > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=119420431&iu=/4140/ostg.c
> > lktrk
> > _______________________________________________
> > xbiblio-devel mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> CenturyLink Cloud: The Leader in Enterprise Cloud Services.
> Learn Why More Businesses Are Choosing CenturyLink Cloud For
> Critical Workloads, Development Environments & Everything In Between.
> Get a Quote or Start a Free Trial Today.
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel


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--
Sebastian Karcher
Ph.D. Candidate
Department of Political Science
Northwestern University

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Re: Page range delimite replacement

Sylvester Keil
Sebastian, I fully agree that replacement is often crucial; especially
when quotes are added by the processor, like in your example, it is
important to then substitute quotes of the same kind — but how far
should the processor go?

Your example is the easy case: you are adding “ and ” and you replace
all occurrences of the same quotation marks by the inner-quote variants.
I agree that it makes sense for CSL to demand such behavior.

But would you replace " also (as in: "Ain't I a woman?")? More
importantly, how do you distinguish between opening and closing "? Or
what do you do if your current locale defines quotes as » and « — do you
still replace all occurrences of " quotes? More interestingly, do you
replace “ and ” too?

The next question is: do you replace ' with single quotes? Again, do you
do that always, or only if your locale's single quotes are ‘ and ’?

Sylvester

On Sun, 2014-01-26 at 11:35 -0700, Sebastian Karcher wrote:

> The problems with quotes and en-dashes are slightly different.
>
>
> For en-dashes, the chance that auto-replace is doing something
> undesirable is _quite_ small. I'm sure hyphens in page numbers exist
> somewhere, but I have never seen one. On the other hand, technically
> we wouldn't need to do this, since users _could_ input en-dashes
> themselves in the data. However, so few people are even aware of
> en-dashes, and even fewer know how to type one on their computer that
> I think that would be a bad, bad idea (I believe bibtex requires the
> en-dash, usually as --, in the data. )
>
>
> For quotations marks, there is a higher chance of problems - and they
> do come up occasionally - but it is also absolutely crucial to getting
> correct citations from the same data. Take an article title like:
> “Ain’t i a woman?”: Towards an intersectional approach to person
> perception and group-based harms
>
> The above is how it's printed in the journal and I imagine most people
> would input it like that. Now if you cite this in APA, you want:
> Goff, P. A., Thomas, M. A., & Jackson, M. C. (2008). “Ain’t i a
> woman?”: Towards an intersectional approach to person perception and
> group-based harms. Sex Roles, 59(5-6), 392–403.
> doi:10.1007/s11199-008-9505-4
>
>
> I.e. double quotes as in the original. But in Chicago style, you want
>
>
> Goff, Phillip Atiba, Margaret A. Thomas, and Matthew Christian
> Jackson. “‘Ain’t I a Woman?’: Towards an Intersectional Approach to
> Person Perception and Group-Based Harms.” Sex Roles 59, no. 5–6
> (September 1, 2008): 392–403. doi:10.1007/s11199-008-9505-4.
>
>
> i.e. converted single quotes. There is absolutely no alternative to
> having the processor do this, so yes, I do think it's necessary and
> should be uncontroversial.
>
>
> So while, as a general issue, I agree it's tricky to auto-anything
> with user content, I do think we're doing the right thing here in both
> cases.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 9:30 AM, Sylvester Keil <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>         Thanks for this Chris!
>        
>         In my opinion this demonstrates that we must tread very
>         carefully when
>         touching user input. A similar issue arises with single and
>         double
>         quotes — IIRC citeproc-js applies conversions there as well
>         (not quotes
>         added by the processor, but quotes present in the original
>         input). I
>         have yet to look at this in more detail, but I imagine this is
>         potentially even more controversial than hyphens in page
>         numbers. Is
>         there an equally strong consensus for converting quotes as
>         there is for
>         the page range delimiter?
>        
>        
>         On Sun, 2014-01-26 at 04:14 +0000, Maloney, Christopher
>         (NIH/NLM/NCBI)
>         [C] wrote:
>         > I just came across an interesting note on the description
>         page of Wikipedia's citation bot
>         (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Citation_bot#Page_numbers_with_hyphens), and thought it might be relevant here:
>         >
>         >     The bot replaces hyphens with en dash in page number
>         ranges. On rare occasions when a hyphen is
>         >     right and an en dash is wrong (hyphen in the page number
>         itself), manually use the hyphen HTML
>         >     code &#8209; instead of the dash/hyphen.
>         >
>         > So, according to this, there are edge cases where the
>         substitution would be wrong.  I don't have any examples, but
>         if you want to pursue it, you could leave a note on the bot
>         talk page
>         (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Citation_bot), or
>         contact the author
>         (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Smith609).
>         >
>         >
>         > Chris Maloney
>         > NIH/NLM/NCBI (Contractor)
>         > Building 45, 5AN.24D-22
>         > 301-594-2842
>         >
>         >
>         > > -----Original Message-----
>         > > From: Rintze Zelle [mailto:[hidden email]]
>         > > Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 4:47 PM
>         > > To: development discussion for xbiblio
>         > > Subject: Re: [xbiblio-devel] Page range delimite
>         replacement
>         > >
>         > > Sebastian, Sylvester, does either of you (or anybody else)
>         ever encounter
>         > > item metadata that uses anything other than hyphens or
>         en-dashes in page
>         > > ranges? Do we really have to substitute repeated hyphens
>         and em-dashes
>         > > as well?
>         > >
>         > > Rintze
>         > >
>         > > On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 11:08 AM, Sylvester Keil
>         <[hidden email]>
>         > > wrote:
>         > > > Sounds good to me; I guess it would be sufficient to add
>         one more
>         > > > sentence after the one I quoted. To make it easier for
>         implementors we
>         > > > could also enumerate exactly which characters should be
>         replaced (my
>         > > > take would be: -, en-dash, em-dash, making sure to catch
>         things like
>         > > > '--', too).
>         > >
>         > >
>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>         > > CenturyLink Cloud: The Leader in Enterprise Cloud
>         Services.
>         > > Learn Why More Businesses Are Choosing CenturyLink Cloud
>         For Critical
>         > > Workloads, Development Environments & Everything In
>         Between.
>         > > Get a Quote or Start a Free Trial Today.
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>         http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=119420431&iu=/4140/ostg.c
>         > > lktrk
>         > > _______________________________________________
>         > > xbiblio-devel mailing list
>         > > [hidden email]
>         > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>         >
>         >
>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>         > Critical Workloads, Development Environments & Everything In
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>         > _______________________________________________
>         > xbiblio-devel mailing list
>         > [hidden email]
>         > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>        
>        
>        
>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>         Critical Workloads, Development Environments & Everything In
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>        
>
>
>
> --
> Sebastian Karcher
> Ph.D. Candidate
> Department of Political Science
> Northwestern University
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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