Proposal: add "volume-title" as a CSL variable

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Proposal: add "volume-title" as a CSL variable

Nick Bart
I'd like to repeat a proposal first made by adam3smith in Jan 2013 at
https://github.com/ajlyon/zotero-bits/issues/54, which apparently has
not been posted on a CSL list or issue tracker before.

The proposal is to add "volume-title" as a CSL variable, intended to
hold (a) the title of a single volume that is itself part of a
multi-volume monograph, or (b) the title of a special issue of a
journal.

Rationale: CMoS requires a distinction between the title of a single
volume (CSL: "volume-title") and the title of a multi-volume monograph
(CSL: "title", or "container-title" for book chapters etc.), and both
need to be distinguished from series (CSL: "collection-title").

adam3smith's original post follows:

> http://forums.zotero.org/discussion/26476/helpfeature-request-individual-volumes-as-parts-of-multivolume-works/#Item_3
>
> Examples from Chicago Manual include:
> Pelikan, Jaroslav. The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine. Vol. 1, The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100–600). Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971.
>
> http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/16/ch14/ch14_sec124.html
>
> and
>
> Barrows, Herbert. Reading the Short Story. Vol. 1 of An Introduction to Literature, edited by Gordon N. Ray. Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 1959.
>
> http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/16/ch14/ch14_sec127.html
>
> Note that these are different from (and can, in fact co-occur with) series and series title.
>
> Proposal: add a field "Volume Title" to Book and Book Section, map it to new CSL variable "volume-title"
>
> This could be combined with #36 - if we create a field "Issue Title" we can use that as an indicator of a special issue and map it to the same volume-title CSL variable.

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Re: Proposal: add "volume-title" as a CSL variable

Sebastian Karcher
background for re-posting is here:
http://osdir.com/ml/general/2013-09/msg04463.html
I actually disagree with Bruce on the nature of the discussion on zotero-bits: It has a specific tag for csl changes and everyone who writes or helps to write the specs is active there. Before we make any spec changes (and certainly before we introduce new variables) we'll write them up and post about them here so implementers can comment. We'd also likely move things over to the CSL issue tracker once work on a new version of specs begins (which isn't currently the case). But until then, zotero-bits, inspite of its name, seems like a perfectly apt place for such details.


On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 12:27 PM, Nick Bart <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'd like to repeat a proposal first made by adam3smith in Jan 2013 at
https://github.com/ajlyon/zotero-bits/issues/54, which apparently has
not been posted on a CSL list or issue tracker before.

The proposal is to add "volume-title" as a CSL variable, intended to
hold (a) the title of a single volume that is itself part of a
multi-volume monograph, or (b) the title of a special issue of a
journal.

Rationale: CMoS requires a distinction between the title of a single
volume (CSL: "volume-title") and the title of a multi-volume monograph
(CSL: "title", or "container-title" for book chapters etc.), and both
need to be distinguished from series (CSL: "collection-title").

adam3smith's original post follows:

> http://forums.zotero.org/discussion/26476/helpfeature-request-individual-volumes-as-parts-of-multivolume-works/#Item_3
>
> Examples from Chicago Manual include:
> Pelikan, Jaroslav. The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine. Vol. 1, The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100–600). Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971.
>
> http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/16/ch14/ch14_sec124.html
>
> and
>
> Barrows, Herbert. Reading the Short Story. Vol. 1 of An Introduction to Literature, edited by Gordon N. Ray. Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 1959.
>
> http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/16/ch14/ch14_sec127.html
>
> Note that these are different from (and can, in fact co-occur with) series and series title.
>
> Proposal: add a field "Volume Title" to Book and Book Section, map it to new CSL variable "volume-title"
>
> This could be combined with #36 - if we create a field "Issue Title" we can use that as an indicator of a special issue and map it to the same volume-title CSL variable.

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Re: Proposal: add "volume-title" as a CSL variable

Bruce D'Arcus-3
But the fact remains, the zotero-bit discussion focuses on the needs
of zotero users. By definition, it does not include other communities.

That's all I really meant to say.

Bruce

On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 1:57 PM, Sebastian Karcher
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> background for re-posting is here:
> http://osdir.com/ml/general/2013-09/msg04463.html
> I actually disagree with Bruce on the nature of the discussion on
> zotero-bits: It has a specific tag for csl changes and everyone who writes
> or helps to write the specs is active there. Before we make any spec changes
> (and certainly before we introduce new variables) we'll write them up and
> post about them here so implementers can comment. We'd also likely move
> things over to the CSL issue tracker once work on a new version of specs
> begins (which isn't currently the case). But until then, zotero-bits,
> inspite of its name, seems like a perfectly apt place for such details.
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 12:27 PM, Nick Bart <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I'd like to repeat a proposal first made by adam3smith in Jan 2013 at
>> https://github.com/ajlyon/zotero-bits/issues/54, which apparently has
>> not been posted on a CSL list or issue tracker before.
>>
>> The proposal is to add "volume-title" as a CSL variable, intended to
>> hold (a) the title of a single volume that is itself part of a
>> multi-volume monograph, or (b) the title of a special issue of a
>> journal.
>>
>> Rationale: CMoS requires a distinction between the title of a single
>> volume (CSL: "volume-title") and the title of a multi-volume monograph
>> (CSL: "title", or "container-title" for book chapters etc.), and both
>> need to be distinguished from series (CSL: "collection-title").
>>
>> adam3smith's original post follows:
>>
>> >
>> > http://forums.zotero.org/discussion/26476/helpfeature-request-individual-volumes-as-parts-of-multivolume-works/#Item_3
>> >
>> > Examples from Chicago Manual include:
>> > Pelikan, Jaroslav. The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development
>> > of Doctrine. Vol. 1, The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100–600).
>> > Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971.
>> >
>> > http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/16/ch14/ch14_sec124.html
>> >
>> > and
>> >
>> > Barrows, Herbert. Reading the Short Story. Vol. 1 of An Introduction to
>> > Literature, edited by Gordon N. Ray. Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 1959.
>> >
>> > http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/16/ch14/ch14_sec127.html
>> >
>> > Note that these are different from (and can, in fact co-occur with)
>> > series and series title.
>> >
>> > Proposal: add a field "Volume Title" to Book and Book Section, map it to
>> > new CSL variable "volume-title"
>> >
>> > This could be combined with #36 - if we create a field "Issue Title" we
>> > can use that as an indicator of a special issue and map it to the same
>> > volume-title CSL variable.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> Discover the easy way to master current and previous Microsoft
>> technologies
>> and advance your career. Get an incredible 1,500+ hours of step-by-step
>> tutorial videos with LearnDevNow. Subscribe today and save!
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>> _______________________________________________
>> xbiblio-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sebastian Karcher
> Ph.D. Candidate
> Department of Political Science
> Northwestern University
>
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Re: Proposal: add "volume-title" as a CSL variable

ajlyon
I would be more than happy to transfer ownership of the zotero-bits repo to Zotero proper, to clean that bit of history up. It's an accident of history that the issue tracker ended up being the one on my personal repo.


On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 11:12 AM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]> wrote:
But the fact remains, the zotero-bit discussion focuses on the needs
of zotero users. By definition, it does not include other communities.

That's all I really meant to say.

Bruce

On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 1:57 PM, Sebastian Karcher
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> background for re-posting is here:
> http://osdir.com/ml/general/2013-09/msg04463.html
> I actually disagree with Bruce on the nature of the discussion on
> zotero-bits: It has a specific tag for csl changes and everyone who writes
> or helps to write the specs is active there. Before we make any spec changes
> (and certainly before we introduce new variables) we'll write them up and
> post about them here so implementers can comment. We'd also likely move
> things over to the CSL issue tracker once work on a new version of specs
> begins (which isn't currently the case). But until then, zotero-bits,
> inspite of its name, seems like a perfectly apt place for such details.
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 12:27 PM, Nick Bart <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I'd like to repeat a proposal first made by adam3smith in Jan 2013 at
>> https://github.com/ajlyon/zotero-bits/issues/54, which apparently has
>> not been posted on a CSL list or issue tracker before.
>>
>> The proposal is to add "volume-title" as a CSL variable, intended to
>> hold (a) the title of a single volume that is itself part of a
>> multi-volume monograph, or (b) the title of a special issue of a
>> journal.
>>
>> Rationale: CMoS requires a distinction between the title of a single
>> volume (CSL: "volume-title") and the title of a multi-volume monograph
>> (CSL: "title", or "container-title" for book chapters etc.), and both
>> need to be distinguished from series (CSL: "collection-title").
>>
>> adam3smith's original post follows:
>>
>> >
>> > http://forums.zotero.org/discussion/26476/helpfeature-request-individual-volumes-as-parts-of-multivolume-works/#Item_3
>> >
>> > Examples from Chicago Manual include:
>> > Pelikan, Jaroslav. The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development
>> > of Doctrine. Vol. 1, The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100–600).
>> > Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971.
>> >
>> > http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/16/ch14/ch14_sec124.html
>> >
>> > and
>> >
>> > Barrows, Herbert. Reading the Short Story. Vol. 1 of An Introduction to
>> > Literature, edited by Gordon N. Ray. Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 1959.
>> >
>> > http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/16/ch14/ch14_sec127.html
>> >
>> > Note that these are different from (and can, in fact co-occur with)
>> > series and series title.
>> >
>> > Proposal: add a field "Volume Title" to Book and Book Section, map it to
>> > new CSL variable "volume-title"
>> >
>> > This could be combined with #36 - if we create a field "Issue Title" we
>> > can use that as an indicator of a special issue and map it to the same
>> > volume-title CSL variable.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Learn the latest--Visual Studio 2012, SharePoint 2013, SQL 2012, more!
>> Discover the easy way to master current and previous Microsoft
>> technologies
>> and advance your career. Get an incredible 1,500+ hours of step-by-step
>> tutorial videos with LearnDevNow. Subscribe today and save!
>>
>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=58040911&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>> _______________________________________________
>> xbiblio-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sebastian Karcher
> Ph.D. Candidate
> Department of Political Science
> Northwestern University
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>

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Re: Proposal: add "volume-title" as a CSL variable

rmzelle
Administrator
Since zotero-bits has been entirely community-led so far (with
community = Zotero users), I don't see the issue in having you as the
owner. Making it an repository of the "zotero" GitHub organization
might proof even more confusing (and if it were to be transferred, the
repository name should probably change to something more descriptive).
I'd say we keep things as they are, but retire zotero-bits once the
current issues have been dealt with.

Rintze

On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 2:26 PM, Avram Lyon <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I would be more than happy to transfer ownership of the zotero-bits repo to
> Zotero proper, to clean that bit of history up. It's an accident of history
> that the issue tracker ended up being the one on my personal repo.
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 11:12 AM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> But the fact remains, the zotero-bit discussion focuses on the needs
>> of zotero users. By definition, it does not include other communities.
>>
>> That's all I really meant to say.
>>
>> Bruce

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Re: Proposal: add "volume-title" as a CSL variable

Nick Bart
On Wednesday, 4 September 2013 13:00:47 UTC+2, Bruce D'Arcus wrote, on
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/pandoc-discuss/-SajbqoPX8k:

>    Yeah, I'm saying that a journal is (should be) really a collection, as is a book series, a legal code, etc.

>    But let's move this to the CSL venues.


I dont't actually think so. Monographs and journals are conceptually
on the same level: they are the major independent bibliographic units,
most bibliographic conventions dictate that their titles (and only
their titles) are italicized, etc.

Thus, I do not see a problem in continuing to use "container-title"
for journal titles.

Some journals do include series information, but this is conceptually
very much unlike book series information: For journals, this is
typically of the form "New series", or "2nd series", and indicates a
subdivision of one journal, and appears immediately after the journal
title, and in databases sometimes even as part of the title. It seems
CSL does not have a variable for his kind of information yet. The CSL
variable "section" comes close, but not quite.

Upshot: I do not feel existing title variables ("title",
"container-title", "collection-title") would need to be changed; it's
only that one that is missing so far ("volume-title") needs to be
added.

Variable names of course, could be reconsidered. Even "volume-title"
is not ideal since in the context of an article it would rather mean
"issue-title", but for the sake of simplicity this could prabably be
accepted.

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Re: Proposal: add "volume-title" as a CSL variable

Sebastian Karcher
yeah, I'm with Nick here - using container-title for volume title is a _very_ uncomfortable fit.


On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 12:59 AM, Nick Bart <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wednesday, 4 September 2013 13:00:47 UTC+2, Bruce D'Arcus wrote, on
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/pandoc-discuss/-SajbqoPX8k:

>    Yeah, I'm saying that a journal is (should be) really a collection, as is a book series, a legal code, etc.

>    But let's move this to the CSL venues.


I dont't actually think so. Monographs and journals are conceptually
on the same level: they are the major independent bibliographic units,
most bibliographic conventions dictate that their titles (and only
their titles) are italicized, etc.

Thus, I do not see a problem in continuing to use "container-title"
for journal titles.

Some journals do include series information, but this is conceptually
very much unlike book series information: For journals, this is
typically of the form "New series", or "2nd series", and indicates a
subdivision of one journal, and appears immediately after the journal
title, and in databases sometimes even as part of the title. It seems
CSL does not have a variable for his kind of information yet. The CSL
variable "section" comes close, but not quite.

Upshot: I do not feel existing title variables ("title",
"container-title", "collection-title") would need to be changed; it's
only that one that is missing so far ("volume-title") needs to be
added.

Variable names of course, could be reconsidered. Even "volume-title"
is not ideal since in the context of an article it would rather mean
"issue-title", but for the sake of simplicity this could prabably be
accepted.

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Re: Proposal: add "volume-title" as a CSL variable

Bruce D'Arcus-3
I'm not at this point making any particular recommendation. All I'm
saying is that we need to step back and consider the use cases, and we
need to do that within the context of the existing design.

If we're talking about multi-volumed books, we have: item (book),
volume (what is actually a collection of books), and optionally,
series (also a collection of books, and/or book volumes). So that's
awkward, particularly if you consider possibility of edited books.

If we're talking special journal issues, we have: item (article),
issue (what I'd say is a container), and journal (a collection). I
made a design decision, that may or may not have been conscious at the
time, to effectively through out the issue level in terms of its
mapping to the basic logical levels.

I don't much like at first glance adding something quite so concrete
and orthogonal as "volume-title."

On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 10:58 AM, Sebastian Karcher
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> yeah, I'm with Nick here - using container-title for volume title is a
> _very_ uncomfortable fit.
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 12:59 AM, Nick Bart <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On Wednesday, 4 September 2013 13:00:47 UTC+2, Bruce D'Arcus wrote, on
>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/pandoc-discuss/-SajbqoPX8k:
>>
>> >    Yeah, I'm saying that a journal is (should be) really a collection,
>> > as is a book series, a legal code, etc.
>>
>> >    But let's move this to the CSL venues.
>>
>>
>> I dont't actually think so. Monographs and journals are conceptually
>> on the same level: they are the major independent bibliographic units,
>> most bibliographic conventions dictate that their titles (and only
>> their titles) are italicized, etc.
>>
>> Thus, I do not see a problem in continuing to use "container-title"
>> for journal titles.
>>
>> Some journals do include series information, but this is conceptually
>> very much unlike book series information: For journals, this is
>> typically of the form "New series", or "2nd series", and indicates a
>> subdivision of one journal, and appears immediately after the journal
>> title, and in databases sometimes even as part of the title. It seems
>> CSL does not have a variable for his kind of information yet. The CSL
>> variable "section" comes close, but not quite.
>>
>> Upshot: I do not feel existing title variables ("title",
>> "container-title", "collection-title") would need to be changed; it's
>> only that one that is missing so far ("volume-title") needs to be
>> added.
>>
>> Variable names of course, could be reconsidered. Even "volume-title"
>> is not ideal since in the context of an article it would rather mean
>> "issue-title", but for the sake of simplicity this could prabably be
>> accepted.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Learn the latest--Visual Studio 2012, SharePoint 2013, SQL 2012, more!
>> Discover the easy way to master current and previous Microsoft
>> technologies
>> and advance your career. Get an incredible 1,500+ hours of step-by-step
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>> _______________________________________________
>> xbiblio-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>
>
>
>
> --
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> Ph.D. Candidate
> Department of Political Science
> Northwestern University
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Proposal: add "volume-title" as a CSL variable

Sebastian Karcher
So there are two parts to my proposal:
1. A volume-title variable to be used for books. As I say in the original proposal, this needs to be distinct from title, container-title, and collection-title. It is analytically in line with "volume" - in other words, currently the only way we describe volumes of books is by their number, but it's not uncommon for citation styles to also require their title.
2. Using the same variable for the title of special issues. There, too, the only way we describe an individual item is via number(s) (the combination of issue and volume number) but for special issues, many citation styles require a title as a descriptor. Technically this is an issue title and not a volume-title, but it has the same logic. As for:

> If we're talking special journal issues, we have: item (article),
> issue (what I'd say is a container), and journal (a collection).
but that's not how we're using these terms in CSL. The journal title has always been mapped to "container-title" so the journal is the container not a collection. (And as per Nick, that also makes sense given bibliographic conventions - a journal and a monograph are at the same level bibliographically. Their titles are italicized, they get assigned a single call number in libraries etc.).

I'm not wedded to calling this volume title, but what we need is a title to describe items that we currently only describe by numbers.



On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 9:35 AM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm not at this point making any particular recommendation. All I'm
saying is that we need to step back and consider the use cases, and we
need to do that within the context of the existing design.

If we're talking about multi-volumed books, we have: item (book),
volume (what is actually a collection of books), and optionally,
series (also a collection of books, and/or book volumes). So that's
awkward, particularly if you consider possibility of edited books.

If we're talking special journal issues, we have: item (article),
issue (what I'd say is a container), and journal (a collection). I
made a design decision, that may or may not have been conscious at the
time, to effectively through out the issue level in terms of its
mapping to the basic logical levels.

I don't much like at first glance adding something quite so concrete
and orthogonal as "volume-title."

On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 10:58 AM, Sebastian Karcher
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> yeah, I'm with Nick here - using container-title for volume title is a
> _very_ uncomfortable fit.
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 12:59 AM, Nick Bart <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On Wednesday, 4 September 2013 13:00:47 UTC+2, Bruce D'Arcus wrote, on
>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/pandoc-discuss/-SajbqoPX8k:
>>
>> >    Yeah, I'm saying that a journal is (should be) really a collection,
>> > as is a book series, a legal code, etc.
>>
>> >    But let's move this to the CSL venues.
>>
>>
>> I dont't actually think so. Monographs and journals are conceptually
>> on the same level: they are the major independent bibliographic units,
>> most bibliographic conventions dictate that their titles (and only
>> their titles) are italicized, etc.
>>
>> Thus, I do not see a problem in continuing to use "container-title"
>> for journal titles.
>>
>> Some journals do include series information, but this is conceptually
>> very much unlike book series information: For journals, this is
>> typically of the form "New series", or "2nd series", and indicates a
>> subdivision of one journal, and appears immediately after the journal
>> title, and in databases sometimes even as part of the title. It seems
>> CSL does not have a variable for his kind of information yet. The CSL
>> variable "section" comes close, but not quite.
>>
>> Upshot: I do not feel existing title variables ("title",
>> "container-title", "collection-title") would need to be changed; it's
>> only that one that is missing so far ("volume-title") needs to be
>> added.
>>
>> Variable names of course, could be reconsidered. Even "volume-title"
>> is not ideal since in the context of an article it would rather mean
>> "issue-title", but for the sake of simplicity this could prabably be
>> accepted.
>>
>>
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> Department of Political Science
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Re: Proposal: add "volume-title" as a CSL variable

Nick Bart
Fine, I’ll try to clarify a bit more:

To represent book chapters in multivolume monographs as required by
CMoS and others, four different kinds of title variables are needed:
title, (the proposed) volume-title, container-title, and
collection-title.

In the following example,

        Diener, Ed. 2009. “Cross-Cultural Correlates of Life Satisfaction and
Self-Esteem.” In *Culture and Well-being*, Vol. 2 of *The Collected
Works of Ed Diener,* 71–92. Social Indicators Research Series.
Dordrecht: Springer.

“Cross-Cultural Correlates of Life Satisfaction and Self-Esteem” quite
clearly is the title (of the chapter); and “Social Indicators Research
Series” is the series title, i.e., in CSL, the collection-title. I
would argue that the title of the multivolume monograph, *The
Collected Works of Ed Diener*, is the container-title, and that for
the title of the single volume, *Culture and Well-being*, a new
variable, “volume-title” should be introduced.

Again, the name is not that important, but it should be clear that the
introduction of one additional CSL variable simply cannot be avoided.

If anyone thinks this is not the case, I'd like to ask them to point
out why not, and what solution they’d offer.

Now, if we agree that a new variable needs to be introduced (again, I
maintain that’s unavoidable), deliberations I’ve seen in this thread
on repurposing variables no longer make that much sense.

Of course, for a book, the existing three kinds of title variables are
sufficient: title for the single-volume title, container-title for the
title of the multivolume monograph, and collection-title for the
series title.

And, yes, in principle, for a journal article the existing three kinds
of title variables could also be repurposed somehow: title for the
title of the article, container-title for the title of the special
issue, and collection-title for the title of the journal – but I feel
this would only create confusion. I also feel (as I said before) that
journals and multivolume monographs are conceptually on the same level
and that their titles thus should both be "container-title". Finally,
since the introduction of something like "volume-title" is necessary
anyway, I see no reason not to simply use *this* for the title of a
special issue, and leave container-title for the title of the journal,
as it has alwys been.

As to variable names, I can appreciate the idea of using abstract
terms. In this case, however, I still feel "volume-title" might be the
best solution. But for those who feel it should be more abstract: What
about "component-title"?


On 05/09/2013, Sebastian Karcher <[hidden email]> wrote:

> So there are two parts to my proposal:
> 1. A volume-title variable to be used for books. As I say in the original
> proposal, this needs to be distinct from title, container-title, and
> collection-title. It is analytically in line with "volume" - in other
> words, currently the only way we describe volumes of books is by their
> number, but it's not uncommon for citation styles to also require their
> title.
> 2. Using the same variable for the title of special issues. There, too, the
> only way we describe an individual item is via number(s) (the combination
> of issue and volume number) but for special issues, many citation styles
> require a title as a descriptor. Technically this is an issue title and not
> a volume-title, but it has the same logic. As for:
>
>> If we're talking special journal issues, we have: item (article),
>> issue (what I'd say is a container), and journal (a collection).
> but that's not how we're using these terms in CSL. The journal title has
> always been mapped to "container-title" so the journal is the container not
> a collection. (And as per Nick, that also makes sense given bibliographic
> conventions - a journal and a monograph are at the same level
> bibliographically. Their titles are italicized, they get assigned a single
> call number in libraries etc.).
>
> I'm not wedded to calling this volume title, but what we need is a title to
> describe items that we currently only describe by numbers.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 9:35 AM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I'm not at this point making any particular recommendation. All I'm
>> saying is that we need to step back and consider the use cases, and we
>> need to do that within the context of the existing design.
>>
>> If we're talking about multi-volumed books, we have: item (book),
>> volume (what is actually a collection of books), and optionally,
>> series (also a collection of books, and/or book volumes). So that's
>> awkward, particularly if you consider possibility of edited books.
>>
>> If we're talking special journal issues, we have: item (article),
>> issue (what I'd say is a container), and journal (a collection). I
>> made a design decision, that may or may not have been conscious at the
>> time, to effectively through out the issue level in terms of its
>> mapping to the basic logical levels.
>>
>> I don't much like at first glance adding something quite so concrete
>> and orthogonal as "volume-title."
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 10:58 AM, Sebastian Karcher
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > yeah, I'm with Nick here - using container-title for volume title is a
>> > _very_ uncomfortable fit.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 12:59 AM, Nick Bart <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Wednesday, 4 September 2013 13:00:47 UTC+2, Bruce D'Arcus wrote, on
>> >> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/pandoc-discuss/-SajbqoPX8k:
>> >>
>> >> >    Yeah, I'm saying that a journal is (should be) really a
>> >> > collection,
>> >> > as is a book series, a legal code, etc.
>> >>
>> >> >    But let's move this to the CSL venues.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I dont't actually think so. Monographs and journals are conceptually
>> >> on the same level: they are the major independent bibliographic units,
>> >> most bibliographic conventions dictate that their titles (and only
>> >> their titles) are italicized, etc.
>> >>
>> >> Thus, I do not see a problem in continuing to use "container-title"
>> >> for journal titles.
>> >>
>> >> Some journals do include series information, but this is conceptually
>> >> very much unlike book series information: For journals, this is
>> >> typically of the form "New series", or "2nd series", and indicates a
>> >> subdivision of one journal, and appears immediately after the journal
>> >> title, and in databases sometimes even as part of the title. It seems
>> >> CSL does not have a variable for his kind of information yet. The CSL
>> >> variable "section" comes close, but not quite.
>> >>
>> >> Upshot: I do not feel existing title variables ("title",
>> >> "container-title", "collection-title") would need to be changed; it's
>> >> only that one that is missing so far ("volume-title") needs to be
>> >> added.
>> >>
>> >> Variable names of course, could be reconsidered. Even "volume-title"
>> >> is not ideal since in the context of an article it would rather mean
>> >> "issue-title", but for the sake of simplicity this could prabably be
>> >> accepted.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Sebastian Karcher
>> > Ph.D. Candidate
>> > Department of Political Science
>> > Northwestern University
>> >
>> >
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>>
>>
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>
>
>
> --
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> Ph.D. Candidate
> Department of Political Science
> Northwestern University
>

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Re: Proposal: add "volume-title" as a CSL variable

rmzelle
Administrator
On Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 1:57 PM, Nick Bart <[hidden email]> wrote:
> And, yes, in principle, for a journal article the existing three kinds
> of title variables could also be repurposed somehow: title for the
> title of the article, container-title for the title of the special
> issue, and collection-title for the title of the journal – but I feel
> this would only create confusion.

Putting aside the discussion whether repurposing variables is a good
idea, changing the use of existing variables would severely delay
implementation. It would be a backward incompatible change, since
practically all existing styles would have to be changed to use the
new mapping, requiring a "big" CSL update (i.e. 1.1), for which we
have no ETA.

> As to variable names, I can appreciate the idea of using abstract
> terms. In this case, however, I still feel "volume-title" might be the
> best solution. But for those who feel it should be more abstract: What
> about "component-title"?

I'm pretty convinced by Nick and Sebastian. I'm just wondering if it
would be preferable to introduce two new variables instead of one:
"volume-title" and "issue-title", which would be analogous to the
number variables "volume" and "issue". I don't like the dual-purpose
"component-title", since we currently don't use the term "component"
anywhere in CSL, and it's rather vague.

Rintze

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Re: Proposal: add "volume-title" as a CSL variable

Sebastian Karcher
is there any downside to having two variables? In terms of clarity, I think Rintze is right that issue-title for journals and volume-title for books makes more sense. The main reason we want to keep variables limited is so that code is more modular, but issue titles and volume titles - while conceptually quite similar I think - get used very differently so giving them the same variable name wouldn't help here.

The remaining question is whether there may be other item types the require something similar like a volume or an issue title. I can't think of anything currently and I don't think we have anything in our list of proposed changes, but if there were, that would be the case for something more abstract.



On Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 7:58 PM, Rintze Zelle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 1:57 PM, Nick Bart <[hidden email]> wrote:
> And, yes, in principle, for a journal article the existing three kinds
> of title variables could also be repurposed somehow: title for the
> title of the article, container-title for the title of the special
> issue, and collection-title for the title of the journal – but I feel
> this would only create confusion.

Putting aside the discussion whether repurposing variables is a good
idea, changing the use of existing variables would severely delay
implementation. It would be a backward incompatible change, since
practically all existing styles would have to be changed to use the
new mapping, requiring a "big" CSL update (i.e. 1.1), for which we
have no ETA.

> As to variable names, I can appreciate the idea of using abstract
> terms. In this case, however, I still feel "volume-title" might be the
> best solution. But for those who feel it should be more abstract: What
> about "component-title"?

I'm pretty convinced by Nick and Sebastian. I'm just wondering if it
would be preferable to introduce two new variables instead of one:
"volume-title" and "issue-title", which would be analogous to the
number variables "volume" and "issue". I don't like the dual-purpose
"component-title", since we currently don't use the term "component"
anywhere in CSL, and it's rather vague.

Rintze

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Re: Proposal: add "volume-title" as a CSL variable

Bruce D'Arcus-3
The other types of, um, types, where these issues could conceivably
show up are, and so we want to double-check, include:

legal documents (Frank?)
(perhaps) multimedia types like broadcasts, films, etc.

If all the cases related to these types are already covered, then
volume-title and issue-title may be the cleanest way to address this,
per Rintze's point.

On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 12:19 AM, Sebastian Karcher
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> is there any downside to having two variables? In terms of clarity, I think
> Rintze is right that issue-title for journals and volume-title for books
> makes more sense. The main reason we want to keep variables limited is so
> that code is more modular, but issue titles and volume titles - while
> conceptually quite similar I think - get used very differently so giving
> them the same variable name wouldn't help here.
>
> The remaining question is whether there may be other item types the require
> something similar like a volume or an issue title. I can't think of anything
> currently and I don't think we have anything in our list of proposed
> changes, but if there were, that would be the case for something more
> abstract.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 7:58 PM, Rintze Zelle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 1:57 PM, Nick Bart <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > And, yes, in principle, for a journal article the existing three kinds
>> > of title variables could also be repurposed somehow: title for the
>> > title of the article, container-title for the title of the special
>> > issue, and collection-title for the title of the journal – but I feel
>> > this would only create confusion.
>>
>> Putting aside the discussion whether repurposing variables is a good
>> idea, changing the use of existing variables would severely delay
>> implementation. It would be a backward incompatible change, since
>> practically all existing styles would have to be changed to use the
>> new mapping, requiring a "big" CSL update (i.e. 1.1), for which we
>> have no ETA.
>>
>> > As to variable names, I can appreciate the idea of using abstract
>> > terms. In this case, however, I still feel "volume-title" might be the
>> > best solution. But for those who feel it should be more abstract: What
>> > about "component-title"?
>>
>> I'm pretty convinced by Nick and Sebastian. I'm just wondering if it
>> would be preferable to introduce two new variables instead of one:
>> "volume-title" and "issue-title", which would be analogous to the
>> number variables "volume" and "issue". I don't like the dual-purpose
>> "component-title", since we currently don't use the term "component"
>> anywhere in CSL, and it's rather vague.
>>
>> Rintze
>>
>>
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>
>
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Re: Proposal: add "volume-title" as a CSL variable

rmzelle
Administrator
(this is slightly off-topic, but regardless of the outcome of this
discussion, the variable descriptions in the specification can
probably use some work. I didn't spend too much time on these
descriptions, and many variables predate my involvement in the CSL
project. For some (like the "container" date variable and
"original-author" name variable) I couldn't even come up with a
possible use case.)

Rintze

On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 9:46 AM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The other types of, um, types, where these issues could conceivably
> show up are, and so we want to double-check, include:
>
> legal documents (Frank?)
> (perhaps) multimedia types like broadcasts, films, etc.
>
> If all the cases related to these types are already covered, then
> volume-title and issue-title may be the cleanest way to address this,
> per Rintze's point.
>
> On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 12:19 AM, Sebastian Karcher
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> is there any downside to having two variables? In terms of clarity, I think
>> Rintze is right that issue-title for journals and volume-title for books
>> makes more sense. The main reason we want to keep variables limited is so
>> that code is more modular, but issue titles and volume titles - while
>> conceptually quite similar I think - get used very differently so giving
>> them the same variable name wouldn't help here.
>>
>> The remaining question is whether there may be other item types the require
>> something similar like a volume or an issue title. I can't think of anything
>> currently and I don't think we have anything in our list of proposed
>> changes, but if there were, that would be the case for something more
>> abstract.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 7:58 PM, Rintze Zelle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 1:57 PM, Nick Bart <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> > And, yes, in principle, for a journal article the existing three kinds
>>> > of title variables could also be repurposed somehow: title for the
>>> > title of the article, container-title for the title of the special
>>> > issue, and collection-title for the title of the journal – but I feel
>>> > this would only create confusion.
>>>
>>> Putting aside the discussion whether repurposing variables is a good
>>> idea, changing the use of existing variables would severely delay
>>> implementation. It would be a backward incompatible change, since
>>> practically all existing styles would have to be changed to use the
>>> new mapping, requiring a "big" CSL update (i.e. 1.1), for which we
>>> have no ETA.
>>>
>>> > As to variable names, I can appreciate the idea of using abstract
>>> > terms. In this case, however, I still feel "volume-title" might be the
>>> > best solution. But for those who feel it should be more abstract: What
>>> > about "component-title"?
>>>
>>> I'm pretty convinced by Nick and Sebastian. I'm just wondering if it
>>> would be preferable to introduce two new variables instead of one:
>>> "volume-title" and "issue-title", which would be analogous to the
>>> number variables "volume" and "issue". I don't like the dual-purpose
>>> "component-title", since we currently don't use the term "component"
>>> anywhere in CSL, and it's rather vague.
>>>
>>> Rintze
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sebastian Karcher
>> Ph.D. Candidate
>> Department of Political Science
>> Northwestern University
>>
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