Proposal: new CSL variable multivolume-title (or similar) rather than volume-title

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Proposal: new CSL variable multivolume-title (or similar) rather than volume-title

Nick Bart
I'd like to invite everyone to reconsider: I have come to the conclusion that introducing `volume-title` (see https://github.com/citation-style-language/schema/issues/111) is not the optimal solution.

Reason: For a book (a single volume that is part of a multivolume monograph) with a `title` and a `volume-title`, the `title` – quite unlike all other titles – will *not* be the title of the smallest, most specific unit involved. Also, `title-short` will no longer be a convenient, i.e., specific shorthand to refer to this item – the shortest unique from will always have to include a volume number, e.g. “*Collected Works*, Vol. 3”.

My revised proposal is to introduce a new CSL variable for holding the title of the multivolume monograph (e.g. “*Collected Works*”), and keep the CSL `title` variable for the the title of the single volume (e.g., “*Tragedies*”). Assuming we call the new CSL variable `collective-title`, as many library catalogues do, this is what it would look like in CSL:

- `title` (e.g. “Tragedies”)
- `collective-title` (e.g., “Collected Works”)
- `collection-title` (e.g., “Oxbridge Classical Texts”)

and for chapters:

- `title` (e.g. “Macbeth”)
- `container-title` (e.g. “Tragedies”)
- `collective-title` (e.g., “Collected Works”)
- `collection-title` (e.g., “Oxbridge Classical Texts”)

(`collective-title` of course is very similar to `collection-title`; other candidates are `main-title`, or `multivolume-title`.)

This, by the way, matches the approach taken by biblatex, which has, for books:

- title (e.g. “Tragedies”)
- maintitle (e.g., “Collected Works”)
- series (e.g., “Oxbridge Classical Texts”)

and for chapters:
- title (e.g. “Macbeth”)
- booktitle (e.g. “Tragedies”)
- maintitle (e.g., “Collected Works”)
- series (e.g., “Oxbridge Classical Texts”)

I would still introduce `issue-title`, as originally proposed, for journal articles. A whole issue, such as a special issue, however, again should have its title in the `title` variable, rather than in `issue-title`.

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Re: Proposal: new CSL variable multivolume-title (or similar) rather than volume-title

rmzelle
Administrator
On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 9:16 AM, Nick Bart <[hidden email]> wrote:
and for chapters:

- `title` (e.g. “Macbeth”)
- `container-title` (e.g. “Tragedies”)
- `collective-title` (e.g., “Collected Works”)
- `collection-title` (e.g., “Oxbridge Classical Texts”)

This would always be the hierarchy, from specific to broad? Do you have any links to library catalog entries on hand, that demonstrate the point?

Rintze

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Re: Proposal: new CSL variable multivolume-title (or similar) rather than volume-title

Sebastian Karcher
I don't have a clear opinion on this yet, but two downsides that come to mind:
1. It will make introducing this in styles much more code intensive: instead of just adding the volume-title to the citation, we'd have to test for the presence of volume title and if it exists, reverse the order of elements in the style.
This may not become entirely clear with the Macbeth example, but if you look at the CMoS example that motivated this:
Pelikan, Jaroslav. The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine. Vol. 1, The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100–600). Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971.

"The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine" would now be the collective title
which leads to

2. It would require all upstream users to re-enter (rather than complement) their data entry (moving the title to volume title).

I'm particularly concerned about 1. I don't have a strong opinion on this either way, but let's at least be aware of that.

Sebastian


On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Rintze Zelle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 9:16 AM, Nick Bart <[hidden email]> wrote:
and for chapters:

- `title` (e.g. “Macbeth”)
- `container-title` (e.g. “Tragedies”)
- `collective-title` (e.g., “Collected Works”)
- `collection-title` (e.g., “Oxbridge Classical Texts”)

This would always be the hierarchy, from specific to broad? Do you have any links to library catalog entries on hand, that demonstrate the point?

Rintze

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Re: Proposal: new CSL variable multivolume-title (or similar) rather than volume-title

Nick Bart
Downsides: fair enough. But the Chicago Manual, 16e, 14.124, actually lists two formats, and for the second one – the one I'd favour –, your first concern would not apply.

Pelikan, Jaroslav. *The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine.* Vol. 1, *The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100–600).* Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971.
or
Pelikan, Jaroslav. *The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100–600).* Vol. 1 of *The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine.* Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971.

What I am worried about most, by contrast, is sorting, and the handling of short titles. For one of the Knuth books, e.g.,

Knuth, Donald E. 1986. *METAFONT: The Program.* Vol. D of *Computers & Typesetting*. Reading, Mass.: Addison-Wesley.

we'd certainly want "METAFONT" as the short title in notes, and I don't really see how to do this without even worse complications in the code if we do not use "METAFONT: The Program" as the title and "METAFONT" as the short title.

For the British Library's definition of "collective-title" ("An inclusive title for an item containing several works or a title used to collocate the publications of an author, composer, or corporate body containing several works, or extracts etc. from several works, e.g. Complete works."), see http://www.bl.uk/bibliographic/ukmarcmanual/ukmarc_glossary.pdf.
For one example of a library catalogue using "title" and "collective-title", see http://gso.gbv.de/DB=2.1/PPNSET?PPN=305817159.

Finally, on "This would always be the hierarchy, from specific to broad?" – Yes, from a systematic point of view this would be best. This also seems to have been the consensus when I asked the MODS mailing list, [hidden email], mostly frequented by librarians, how to best set up such title hierarchies in MODS.

On 12 March 2015 at 14:20, Sebastian Karcher <[hidden email]> wrote:
I don't have a clear opinion on this yet, but two downsides that come to mind:
1. It will make introducing this in styles much more code intensive: instead of just adding the volume-title to the citation, we'd have to test for the presence of volume title and if it exists, reverse the order of elements in the style.
This may not become entirely clear with the Macbeth example, but if you look at the CMoS example that motivated this:
Pelikan, Jaroslav. The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine. Vol. 1, The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100–600). Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971.

"The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine" would now be the collective title
which leads to

2. It would require all upstream users to re-enter (rather than complement) their data entry (moving the title to volume title).

I'm particularly concerned about 1. I don't have a strong opinion on this either way, but let's at least be aware of that.

Sebastian


On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Rintze Zelle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 9:16 AM, Nick Bart <[hidden email]> wrote:
and for chapters:

- `title` (e.g. “Macbeth”)
- `container-title` (e.g. “Tragedies”)
- `collective-title` (e.g., “Collected Works”)
- `collection-title` (e.g., “Oxbridge Classical Texts”)

This would always be the hierarchy, from specific to broad? Do you have any links to library catalog entries on hand, that demonstrate the point?

Rintze

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Re: Proposal: new CSL variable multivolume-title (or similar) rather than volume-title

Sebastian Karcher
fair enough re: Chicago. Could we maybe check a couple more? Maybe APA, MLA, NLM, and MHRA -- I also just want to make sure we're covered.

On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 12:34 PM, Nick Bart <[hidden email]> wrote:
Downsides: fair enough. But the Chicago Manual, 16e, 14.124, actually lists two formats, and for the second one – the one I'd favour –, your first concern would not apply.

Pelikan, Jaroslav. *The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine.* Vol. 1, *The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100–600).* Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971.
or
Pelikan, Jaroslav. *The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100–600).* Vol. 1 of *The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine.* Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971.

What I am worried about most, by contrast, is sorting, and the handling of short titles. For one of the Knuth books, e.g.,

Knuth, Donald E. 1986. *METAFONT: The Program.* Vol. D of *Computers & Typesetting*. Reading, Mass.: Addison-Wesley.

we'd certainly want "METAFONT" as the short title in notes, and I don't really see how to do this without even worse complications in the code if we do not use "METAFONT: The Program" as the title and "METAFONT" as the short title.

For the British Library's definition of "collective-title" ("An inclusive title for an item containing several works or a title used to collocate the publications of an author, composer, or corporate body containing several works, or extracts etc. from several works, e.g. Complete works."), see http://www.bl.uk/bibliographic/ukmarcmanual/ukmarc_glossary.pdf.
For one example of a library catalogue using "title" and "collective-title", see http://gso.gbv.de/DB=2.1/PPNSET?PPN=305817159.

Finally, on "This would always be the hierarchy, from specific to broad?" – Yes, from a systematic point of view this would be best. This also seems to have been the consensus when I asked the MODS mailing list, [hidden email], mostly frequented by librarians, how to best set up such title hierarchies in MODS.

On 12 March 2015 at 14:20, Sebastian Karcher <[hidden email]> wrote:
I don't have a clear opinion on this yet, but two downsides that come to mind:
1. It will make introducing this in styles much more code intensive: instead of just adding the volume-title to the citation, we'd have to test for the presence of volume title and if it exists, reverse the order of elements in the style.
This may not become entirely clear with the Macbeth example, but if you look at the CMoS example that motivated this:
Pelikan, Jaroslav. The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine. Vol. 1, The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100–600). Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971.

"The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine" would now be the collective title
which leads to

2. It would require all upstream users to re-enter (rather than complement) their data entry (moving the title to volume title).

I'm particularly concerned about 1. I don't have a strong opinion on this either way, but let's at least be aware of that.

Sebastian


On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Rintze Zelle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 9:16 AM, Nick Bart <[hidden email]> wrote:
and for chapters:

- `title` (e.g. “Macbeth”)
- `container-title` (e.g. “Tragedies”)
- `collective-title` (e.g., “Collected Works”)
- `collection-title` (e.g., “Oxbridge Classical Texts”)

This would always be the hierarchy, from specific to broad? Do you have any links to library catalog entries on hand, that demonstrate the point?

Rintze

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Re: Proposal: new CSL variable multivolume-title (or similar) rather than volume-title

Bruce D'Arcus-3
In reply to this post by Nick Bart

Just quickly - am not entirely clear on collection vs collective distinction. Other than one being a noun and the other an adjective, they seem the same idea. A periodical title, for example, is a collection title in the CSL logic.

On Mar 12, 2015 1:41 PM, "Nick Bart" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Downsides: fair enough. But the Chicago Manual, 16e, 14.124, actually lists two formats, and for the second one – the one I'd favour –, your first concern would not apply.

Pelikan, Jaroslav. *The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine.* Vol. 1, *The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100–600).* Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971.
or
Pelikan, Jaroslav. *The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100–600).* Vol. 1 of *The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine.* Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971.

What I am worried about most, by contrast, is sorting, and the handling of short titles. For one of the Knuth books, e.g.,

Knuth, Donald E. 1986. *METAFONT: The Program.* Vol. D of *Computers & Typesetting*. Reading, Mass.: Addison-Wesley.

we'd certainly want "METAFONT" as the short title in notes, and I don't really see how to do this without even worse complications in the code if we do not use "METAFONT: The Program" as the title and "METAFONT" as the short title.

For the British Library's definition of "collective-title" ("An inclusive title for an item containing several works or a title used to collocate the publications of an author, composer, or corporate body containing several works, or extracts etc. from several works, e.g. Complete works."), see http://www.bl.uk/bibliographic/ukmarcmanual/ukmarc_glossary.pdf.
For one example of a library catalogue using "title" and "collective-title", see http://gso.gbv.de/DB=2.1/PPNSET?PPN=305817159.

Finally, on "This would always be the hierarchy, from specific to broad?" – Yes, from a systematic point of view this would be best. This also seems to have been the consensus when I asked the MODS mailing list, [hidden email], mostly frequented by librarians, how to best set up such title hierarchies in MODS.

On 12 March 2015 at 14:20, Sebastian Karcher <[hidden email]> wrote:
I don't have a clear opinion on this yet, but two downsides that come to mind:
1. It will make introducing this in styles much more code intensive: instead of just adding the volume-title to the citation, we'd have to test for the presence of volume title and if it exists, reverse the order of elements in the style.
This may not become entirely clear with the Macbeth example, but if you look at the CMoS example that motivated this:
Pelikan, Jaroslav. The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine. Vol. 1, The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100–600). Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971.

"The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine" would now be the collective title
which leads to

2. It would require all upstream users to re-enter (rather than complement) their data entry (moving the title to volume title).

I'm particularly concerned about 1. I don't have a strong opinion on this either way, but let's at least be aware of that.

Sebastian


On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Rintze Zelle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 9:16 AM, Nick Bart <[hidden email]> wrote:
and for chapters:

- `title` (e.g. “Macbeth”)
- `container-title` (e.g. “Tragedies”)
- `collective-title` (e.g., “Collected Works”)
- `collection-title` (e.g., “Oxbridge Classical Texts”)

This would always be the hierarchy, from specific to broad? Do you have any links to library catalog entries on hand, that demonstrate the point?

Rintze

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Re: Proposal: new CSL variable multivolume-title (or similar) rather than volume-title

Sebastian Karcher
a periodical title is a container-title, at least currently it is.
As for the distinction, it's the distinction between a multi-volume work (the proposed collective-title) and a series (the current collection-title), which can and do exist coexist.

We can argue about naming of the variable, but there are only so many words ;).

On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]> wrote:

Just quickly - am not entirely clear on collection vs collective distinction. Other than one being a noun and the other an adjective, they seem the same idea. A periodical title, for example, is a collection title in the CSL logic.

On Mar 12, 2015 1:41 PM, "Nick Bart" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Downsides: fair enough. But the Chicago Manual, 16e, 14.124, actually lists two formats, and for the second one – the one I'd favour –, your first concern would not apply.

Pelikan, Jaroslav. *The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine.* Vol. 1, *The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100–600).* Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971.
or
Pelikan, Jaroslav. *The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100–600).* Vol. 1 of *The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine.* Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971.

What I am worried about most, by contrast, is sorting, and the handling of short titles. For one of the Knuth books, e.g.,

Knuth, Donald E. 1986. *METAFONT: The Program.* Vol. D of *Computers & Typesetting*. Reading, Mass.: Addison-Wesley.

we'd certainly want "METAFONT" as the short title in notes, and I don't really see how to do this without even worse complications in the code if we do not use "METAFONT: The Program" as the title and "METAFONT" as the short title.

For the British Library's definition of "collective-title" ("An inclusive title for an item containing several works or a title used to collocate the publications of an author, composer, or corporate body containing several works, or extracts etc. from several works, e.g. Complete works."), see http://www.bl.uk/bibliographic/ukmarcmanual/ukmarc_glossary.pdf.
For one example of a library catalogue using "title" and "collective-title", see http://gso.gbv.de/DB=2.1/PPNSET?PPN=305817159.

Finally, on "This would always be the hierarchy, from specific to broad?" – Yes, from a systematic point of view this would be best. This also seems to have been the consensus when I asked the MODS mailing list, [hidden email], mostly frequented by librarians, how to best set up such title hierarchies in MODS.

On 12 March 2015 at 14:20, Sebastian Karcher <[hidden email]> wrote:
I don't have a clear opinion on this yet, but two downsides that come to mind:
1. It will make introducing this in styles much more code intensive: instead of just adding the volume-title to the citation, we'd have to test for the presence of volume title and if it exists, reverse the order of elements in the style.
This may not become entirely clear with the Macbeth example, but if you look at the CMoS example that motivated this:
Pelikan, Jaroslav. The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine. Vol. 1, The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100–600). Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971.

"The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine" would now be the collective title
which leads to

2. It would require all upstream users to re-enter (rather than complement) their data entry (moving the title to volume title).

I'm particularly concerned about 1. I don't have a strong opinion on this either way, but let's at least be aware of that.

Sebastian


On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Rintze Zelle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 9:16 AM, Nick Bart <[hidden email]> wrote:
and for chapters:

- `title` (e.g. “Macbeth”)
- `container-title` (e.g. “Tragedies”)
- `collective-title` (e.g., “Collected Works”)
- `collection-title` (e.g., “Oxbridge Classical Texts”)

This would always be the hierarchy, from specific to broad? Do you have any links to library catalog entries on hand, that demonstrate the point?

Rintze

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Re: Proposal: new CSL variable multivolume-title (or similar) rather than volume-title

Bruce D'Arcus-3

I'm just asking that the distinction be clear.

On Mar 12, 2015 2:07 PM, "Sebastian Karcher" <[hidden email]> wrote:
a periodical title is a container-title, at least currently it is.
As for the distinction, it's the distinction between a multi-volume work (the proposed collective-title) and a series (the current collection-title), which can and do exist coexist.

We can argue about naming of the variable, but there are only so many words ;).

On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]> wrote:

Just quickly - am not entirely clear on collection vs collective distinction. Other than one being a noun and the other an adjective, they seem the same idea. A periodical title, for example, is a collection title in the CSL logic.

On Mar 12, 2015 1:41 PM, "Nick Bart" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Downsides: fair enough. But the Chicago Manual, 16e, 14.124, actually lists two formats, and for the second one – the one I'd favour –, your first concern would not apply.

Pelikan, Jaroslav. *The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine.* Vol. 1, *The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100–600).* Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971.
or
Pelikan, Jaroslav. *The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100–600).* Vol. 1 of *The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine.* Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971.

What I am worried about most, by contrast, is sorting, and the handling of short titles. For one of the Knuth books, e.g.,

Knuth, Donald E. 1986. *METAFONT: The Program.* Vol. D of *Computers & Typesetting*. Reading, Mass.: Addison-Wesley.

we'd certainly want "METAFONT" as the short title in notes, and I don't really see how to do this without even worse complications in the code if we do not use "METAFONT: The Program" as the title and "METAFONT" as the short title.

For the British Library's definition of "collective-title" ("An inclusive title for an item containing several works or a title used to collocate the publications of an author, composer, or corporate body containing several works, or extracts etc. from several works, e.g. Complete works."), see http://www.bl.uk/bibliographic/ukmarcmanual/ukmarc_glossary.pdf.
For one example of a library catalogue using "title" and "collective-title", see http://gso.gbv.de/DB=2.1/PPNSET?PPN=305817159.

Finally, on "This would always be the hierarchy, from specific to broad?" – Yes, from a systematic point of view this would be best. This also seems to have been the consensus when I asked the MODS mailing list, [hidden email], mostly frequented by librarians, how to best set up such title hierarchies in MODS.

On 12 March 2015 at 14:20, Sebastian Karcher <[hidden email]> wrote:
I don't have a clear opinion on this yet, but two downsides that come to mind:
1. It will make introducing this in styles much more code intensive: instead of just adding the volume-title to the citation, we'd have to test for the presence of volume title and if it exists, reverse the order of elements in the style.
This may not become entirely clear with the Macbeth example, but if you look at the CMoS example that motivated this:
Pelikan, Jaroslav. The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine. Vol. 1, The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100–600). Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971.

"The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine" would now be the collective title
which leads to

2. It would require all upstream users to re-enter (rather than complement) their data entry (moving the title to volume title).

I'm particularly concerned about 1. I don't have a strong opinion on this either way, but let's at least be aware of that.

Sebastian


On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Rintze Zelle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 9:16 AM, Nick Bart <[hidden email]> wrote:
and for chapters:

- `title` (e.g. “Macbeth”)
- `container-title` (e.g. “Tragedies”)
- `collective-title` (e.g., “Collected Works”)
- `collection-title` (e.g., “Oxbridge Classical Texts”)

This would always be the hierarchy, from specific to broad? Do you have any links to library catalog entries on hand, that demonstrate the point?

Rintze

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Re: Proposal: new CSL variable multivolume-title (or similar) rather than volume-title

Sebastian Karcher
you mean conceptually or in the variable name? Because conceptually I think it is. If not, it would help if you could expand on how you think it's not.

In terms of the variable name, the idea would be (and I'm assuming here, Nick can correct me) that one is "the title of a collection of works" (such as a book series), while the other is "the collective title of several works that make up a whole" (such as the title of a multi-volume work). 

I don't particularly care about the naming, to be honest, as long as it makes some type of sense. People will have to look at specs and/or mapping charts in the end anyway.

On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'm just asking that the distinction be clear.

On Mar 12, 2015 2:07 PM, "Sebastian Karcher" <[hidden email]> wrote:
a periodical title is a container-title, at least currently it is.
As for the distinction, it's the distinction between a multi-volume work (the proposed collective-title) and a series (the current collection-title), which can and do exist coexist.

We can argue about naming of the variable, but there are only so many words ;).

On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]> wrote:

Just quickly - am not entirely clear on collection vs collective distinction. Other than one being a noun and the other an adjective, they seem the same idea. A periodical title, for example, is a collection title in the CSL logic.

On Mar 12, 2015 1:41 PM, "Nick Bart" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Downsides: fair enough. But the Chicago Manual, 16e, 14.124, actually lists two formats, and for the second one – the one I'd favour –, your first concern would not apply.

Pelikan, Jaroslav. *The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine.* Vol. 1, *The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100–600).* Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971.
or
Pelikan, Jaroslav. *The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100–600).* Vol. 1 of *The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine.* Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971.

What I am worried about most, by contrast, is sorting, and the handling of short titles. For one of the Knuth books, e.g.,

Knuth, Donald E. 1986. *METAFONT: The Program.* Vol. D of *Computers & Typesetting*. Reading, Mass.: Addison-Wesley.

we'd certainly want "METAFONT" as the short title in notes, and I don't really see how to do this without even worse complications in the code if we do not use "METAFONT: The Program" as the title and "METAFONT" as the short title.

For the British Library's definition of "collective-title" ("An inclusive title for an item containing several works or a title used to collocate the publications of an author, composer, or corporate body containing several works, or extracts etc. from several works, e.g. Complete works."), see http://www.bl.uk/bibliographic/ukmarcmanual/ukmarc_glossary.pdf.
For one example of a library catalogue using "title" and "collective-title", see http://gso.gbv.de/DB=2.1/PPNSET?PPN=305817159.

Finally, on "This would always be the hierarchy, from specific to broad?" – Yes, from a systematic point of view this would be best. This also seems to have been the consensus when I asked the MODS mailing list, [hidden email], mostly frequented by librarians, how to best set up such title hierarchies in MODS.

On 12 March 2015 at 14:20, Sebastian Karcher <[hidden email]> wrote:
I don't have a clear opinion on this yet, but two downsides that come to mind:
1. It will make introducing this in styles much more code intensive: instead of just adding the volume-title to the citation, we'd have to test for the presence of volume title and if it exists, reverse the order of elements in the style.
This may not become entirely clear with the Macbeth example, but if you look at the CMoS example that motivated this:
Pelikan, Jaroslav. The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine. Vol. 1, The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100–600). Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971.

"The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine" would now be the collective title
which leads to

2. It would require all upstream users to re-enter (rather than complement) their data entry (moving the title to volume title).

I'm particularly concerned about 1. I don't have a strong opinion on this either way, but let's at least be aware of that.

Sebastian


On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Rintze Zelle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 9:16 AM, Nick Bart <[hidden email]> wrote:
and for chapters:

- `title` (e.g. “Macbeth”)
- `container-title` (e.g. “Tragedies”)
- `collective-title` (e.g., “Collected Works”)
- `collection-title` (e.g., “Oxbridge Classical Texts”)

This would always be the hierarchy, from specific to broad? Do you have any links to library catalog entries on hand, that demonstrate the point?

Rintze

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Re: Proposal: new CSL variable multivolume-title (or similar) rather than volume-title

bwiernik
In reply to this post by Sebastian Karcher
APA has a style more similar to the first format for Chicago:

Zedeck, S. (Ed.). (2011). APA handbook of industrial and organizational psychology: Vol. 1. Building and developing the organization. Washington, DC: American Psychological Association. http://doi.org/10.1037/12169-000

Schmitt, N. W., & Highhouse, S. (Eds.). (2012). Handbook of psychology: Vol. 12. Industrial and organizational psychology (2nd ed.). Hoboken, NJ: John Wiley & Sons. http://doi.org/10.1002/0471264385

In general form:

Editors. (Year). Collective title: Vol. number. Volume title. Place: Publisher. doi

The thing that I would want to cite or look for when thinking about these works is "The Handbook of Industrial and Organizational Psychology", not "Building and developing the organization". It would be counterintuitive for me (and I imagine most psychologists) to have to store "Building and developing the organization" in the title field. It would make scanning the library and finding the item difficult. It would also mean having to rewrite a lot of translators for psychology sources, where "The Handbook of Industrial and Organizational Psychology" would be offered in the metadata as the title.

In short, I would be really opposed to Nick Bart's proposal.
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Re: Proposal: new CSL variable multivolume-title (or similar) rather than volume-title

Nick Bart
Thank you for your comment. In fact, I’m not wedded to the ‘collective-title’ proposal, ‘volume-title’ would solve the problem of the one missing title variable as well. I’m probably more influenced by blblatex, the British Library, and MODS, and tend to see the individual volume as the most relevant unit. I’d also find it a little inconvenient having twelve or more ‘Handbook of psychology’ entries in the middle pane, and having to add either volume or volume-title columns to be able to tell them apart. ‘volume-title’ on the other hand has the advantage of MLZ/citeproc-js and pandoc-citeproc (and MLZ and some inofficial CSL styles) supporting it since years.

So, if a majority on this forum prefers ‘volume-title’, I certainly won’t stand in the way.

I’d find it much more important to reach a decision at all, and adopt either ‘collective-title’ or ‘volume-title’ (but of course not both) as official CSL variables, so they can – eventually – be used in official CSL styles.


On 13 October 2015 at 22:16, bwiernik <[hidden email]> wrote:
APA has a style more similar to the first format for Chicago:

Zedeck, S. (Ed.). (2011). /APA handbook of industrial and organizational
psychology: Vol. 1. Building and developing the organization/. Washington,
DC: American Psychological Association. http://doi.org/10.1037/12169-000

Schmitt, N. W., & Highhouse, S. (Eds.). (2012). /Handbook of psychology:
Vol. 12. Industrial and organizational psychology /(2nd ed.). Hoboken, NJ:
John Wiley & Sons. http://doi.org/10.1002/0471264385

In general form:

Editors. (Year). /Collective title: Vol. number. Volume title./ Place:
Publisher. doi

The thing that I would want to cite or look for when thinking about these
works is "The Handbook of Industrial and Organizational Psychology", not
"Building and developing the organization". It would be counterintuitive for
me (and I imagine most psychologists) to have to store "Building and
developing the organization" in the title field. It would make scanning the
library and finding the item difficult. It would also mean having to rewrite
a lot of translators for psychology sources, where "The Handbook of
Industrial and Organizational Psychology" would be offered in the metadata
as the title.

In short, I would be really opposed to Nick Bart's proposal.



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