Question about types for online news sites

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Question about types for online news sites

Joseph Reagle

In the CSL scheme, would sites like Ars Technica and the Verge be
considered more of a webpage, post-weblog, or article-newspaper?

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Re: Question about types for online news sites

Bruce D'Arcus-3
Probably just "post"?

Bruce


On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Joseph Reagle <[hidden email]> wrote:

In the CSL scheme, would sites like Ars Technica and the Verge be
considered more of a webpage, post-weblog, or article-newspaper?

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Re: Question about types for online news sites

Sebastian Karcher
In reply to this post by Joseph Reagle
I would treat them as webpage, though it's always a bit of a judgment call. My second choice would be article-magazine. (one criterium I use is e.g. the existence of an ISSN - Slate, e.g. has one, so I treat it as a Magazine, Ars Technica doesn't, so I'd put it in the webpage category). I disagree with Bruce on "post," not least because that's not really been taken up by any of the major implementers and so will be a fallback in every single existing citation style.


On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 11:12 AM, Joseph Reagle <[hidden email]> wrote:

In the CSL scheme, would sites like Ars Technica and the Verge be
considered more of a webpage, post-weblog, or article-newspaper?

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Re: Question about types for online news sites

Bruce D'Arcus-3
I actually disagree on the first suggestion.

Yes, it's a webpage, but those items are published in a serial manner, much like a periodical. The "post" type was designed for just that, where it's unclear if it's a more specific subtype.


On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 1:53 PM, Sebastian Karcher <[hidden email]> wrote:
I would treat them as webpage, though it's always a bit of a judgment call. My second choice would be article-magazine. (one criterium I use is e.g. the existence of an ISSN - Slate, e.g. has one, so I treat it as a Magazine, Ars Technica doesn't, so I'd put it in the webpage category). I disagree with Bruce on "post," not least because that's not really been taken up by any of the major implementers and so will be a fallback in every single existing citation style.


On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 11:12 AM, Joseph Reagle <[hidden email]> wrote:

In the CSL scheme, would sites like Ars Technica and the Verge be
considered more of a webpage, post-weblog, or article-newspaper?

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Re: Question about types for online news sites

Sebastian Karcher

I'm sorry Bruce but original intent at this point matters about as much for CSL as for the constitution. It's a living standard ;). Item types aren't defined in the specifications, so we have to take their definition either from existing styles or from CSL implementations and post isn't used by either of those so I don't really see the point in starting to push it now. The webpage item type has a title and a container and so it seems nicely suited for most purposes - and is accounted for in most styles - but as I say, depending on what you want magazine could also work.


On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 12:46 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]> wrote:
I actually disagree on the first suggestion.

Yes, it's a webpage, but those items are published in a serial manner, much like a periodical. The "post" type was designed for just that, where it's unclear if it's a more specific subtype.


On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 1:53 PM, Sebastian Karcher <[hidden email]> wrote:
I would treat them as webpage, though it's always a bit of a judgment call. My second choice would be article-magazine. (one criterium I use is e.g. the existence of an ISSN - Slate, e.g. has one, so I treat it as a Magazine, Ars Technica doesn't, so I'd put it in the webpage category). I disagree with Bruce on "post," not least because that's not really been taken up by any of the major implementers and so will be a fallback in every single existing citation style.


On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 11:12 AM, Joseph Reagle <[hidden email]> wrote:

In the CSL scheme, would sites like Ars Technica and the Verge be
considered more of a webpage, post-weblog, or article-newspaper?

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Re: Question about types for online news sites

Bruce D'Arcus-3
OK, that's a fair point: the practicalities of actually-existing styles. But then maybe either we ought to a) educate style authors, etc. on the purpose of that whole distinction, or b) eliminate the "post" type?

Bruce


On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Sebastian Karcher <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'm sorry Bruce but original intent at this point matters about as much for CSL as for the constitution. It's a living standard ;). Item types aren't defined in the specifications, so we have to take their definition either from existing styles or from CSL implementations and post isn't used by either of those so I don't really see the point in starting to push it now. The webpage item type has a title and a container and so it seems nicely suited for most purposes - and is accounted for in most styles - but as I say, depending on what you want magazine could also work.


On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 12:46 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]> wrote:
I actually disagree on the first suggestion.

Yes, it's a webpage, but those items are published in a serial manner, much like a periodical. The "post" type was designed for just that, where it's unclear if it's a more specific subtype.


On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 1:53 PM, Sebastian Karcher <[hidden email]> wrote:
I would treat them as webpage, though it's always a bit of a judgment call. My second choice would be article-magazine. (one criterium I use is e.g. the existence of an ISSN - Slate, e.g. has one, so I treat it as a Magazine, Ars Technica doesn't, so I'd put it in the webpage category). I disagree with Bruce on "post," not least because that's not really been taken up by any of the major implementers and so will be a fallback in every single existing citation style.


On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 11:12 AM, Joseph Reagle <[hidden email]> wrote:

In the CSL scheme, would sites like Ars Technica and the Verge be
considered more of a webpage, post-weblog, or article-newspaper?

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Re: Question about types for online news sites

aurimas
I thought forumPost in Zotero is mapped to post in CSLĀ http://aurimasv.github.io/z2csl/typeMap.xml#map-forumPost


On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 3:23 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]> wrote:
OK, that's a fair point: the practicalities of actually-existing styles. But then maybe either we ought to a) educate style authors, etc. on the purpose of that whole distinction, or b) eliminate the "post" type?

Bruce


On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Sebastian Karcher <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'm sorry Bruce but original intent at this point matters about as much for CSL as for the constitution. It's a living standard ;). Item types aren't defined in the specifications, so we have to take their definition either from existing styles or from CSL implementations and post isn't used by either of those so I don't really see the point in starting to push it now. The webpage item type has a title and a container and so it seems nicely suited for most purposes - and is accounted for in most styles - but as I say, depending on what you want magazine could also work.


On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 12:46 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]> wrote:
I actually disagree on the first suggestion.

Yes, it's a webpage, but those items are published in a serial manner, much like a periodical. The "post" type was designed for just that, where it's unclear if it's a more specific subtype.


On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 1:53 PM, Sebastian Karcher <[hidden email]> wrote:
I would treat them as webpage, though it's always a bit of a judgment call. My second choice would be article-magazine. (one criterium I use is e.g. the existence of an ISSN - Slate, e.g. has one, so I treat it as a Magazine, Ars Technica doesn't, so I'd put it in the webpage category). I disagree with Bruce on "post," not least because that's not really been taken up by any of the major implementers and so will be a fallback in every single existing citation style.


On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 11:12 AM, Joseph Reagle <[hidden email]> wrote:

In the CSL scheme, would sites like Ars Technica and the Verge be
considered more of a webpage, post-weblog, or article-newspaper?

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Re: Question about types for online news sites

Sebastian Karcher
you're right, sorry. That's actually a reason against also using it for periodical-type webpages, though, isn't it?


On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 2:25 PM, Aurimas Vinckevicius <[hidden email]> wrote:
I thought forumPost in Zotero is mapped to post in CSLĀ http://aurimasv.github.io/z2csl/typeMap.xml#map-forumPost


On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 3:23 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]> wrote:
OK, that's a fair point: the practicalities of actually-existing styles. But then maybe either we ought to a) educate style authors, etc. on the purpose of that whole distinction, or b) eliminate the "post" type?

Bruce


On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Sebastian Karcher <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'm sorry Bruce but original intent at this point matters about as much for CSL as for the constitution. It's a living standard ;). Item types aren't defined in the specifications, so we have to take their definition either from existing styles or from CSL implementations and post isn't used by either of those so I don't really see the point in starting to push it now. The webpage item type has a title and a container and so it seems nicely suited for most purposes - and is accounted for in most styles - but as I say, depending on what you want magazine could also work.


On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 12:46 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]> wrote:
I actually disagree on the first suggestion.

Yes, it's a webpage, but those items are published in a serial manner, much like a periodical. The "post" type was designed for just that, where it's unclear if it's a more specific subtype.


On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 1:53 PM, Sebastian Karcher <[hidden email]> wrote:
I would treat them as webpage, though it's always a bit of a judgment call. My second choice would be article-magazine. (one criterium I use is e.g. the existence of an ISSN - Slate, e.g. has one, so I treat it as a Magazine, Ars Technica doesn't, so I'd put it in the webpage category). I disagree with Bruce on "post," not least because that's not really been taken up by any of the major implementers and so will be a fallback in every single existing citation style.


On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 11:12 AM, Joseph Reagle <[hidden email]> wrote:

In the CSL scheme, would sites like Ars Technica and the Verge be
considered more of a webpage, post-weblog, or article-newspaper?

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Re: Question about types for online news sites

Joseph Reagle
In reply to this post by aurimas
On 12/06/2013 04:25 PM, Aurimas Vinckevicius wrote:
> I thought forumPost in Zotero is mapped to post in CSL
> http://aurimasv.github.io/z2csl/typeMap.xml#map-forumPost

Yes, when I asked about post earlier someone said post = forum post, so
that's what I've been using it for. That seems quite different than Ars...

In any case, I'd really love to see some meat on the bones of those
types, even if an ostensive definition with some examples...

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Re: Question about types for online news sites

Joseph Reagle-2
In reply to this post by Sebastian Karcher
Hello Sebastian,
 
On 12/06/2013 01:53 PM, Sebastian Karcher wrote:
> I would treat them as webpage, though it's always a bit of a judgment call.
> My second choice would be article-magazine.

Given that it is a periodical which publishes things every day, why not
article-newspaper? And what is the reasoning for not considering it a blog?

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Re: Question about types for online news sites

Sebastian Karcher
There is not much reasoning - it's mainly in how I think of it.
I should perhaps have been clearer, but I think you should classify this in a way that makes sense to you. So if you think of ArsTechnica as an online newspaper, call it a newspaper. To me it's a technology website, so I call individual pages webpages. Other people may call it an e-mag, so they use magazine. Yes other people say there are regular posts, so it's a blog (which I consider only pages with a single landing page that shows all entries chronologically - but again: matter of taste). The way you think about a page is and should be reflected in the way it's cited so the fact that you'd get different citations depending on how you classify it makes sense to me.

But I'd argue this also isn't really a CSL question. E.g. the Chicago Manual seems to consider Arstechnica a blog. But then the Becker-Posner Blog is listed as we webpage. MLA seems to consider even articles published on the NYT webpage as "non-periodical online publications" (really!) etc. This simply isn't something we can or should decide at the CSL level.


On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 7:07 AM, Joseph Reagle <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello Sebastian,

On 12/06/2013 01:53 PM, Sebastian Karcher wrote:
> I would treat them as webpage, though it's always a bit of a judgment call.
> My second choice would be article-magazine.

Given that it is a periodical which publishes things every day, why not
article-newspaper? And what is the reasoning for not considering it a blog?

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