proposal: splitting off terms from core language [was Status page for style repository]

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
6 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

proposal: splitting off terms from core language [was Status page for style repository]

Bruce D'Arcus-3
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 6:09 PM, Rintze Zelle <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have a hard time seeing any advantages of such an approach, but please
> prove me wrong.
>
> When we introduce new terms, style authors should be confident that those
> terms have translations in the locale files, and, AFAIK, none of the CSL
> apps support automatic style updating, let alone locale updating.

Well, that's their problem; how hard can it be?

Mendeley guys? Zotero guys? Anyone else?

> Just dismissing that as being the problems of the implementations doesn't seem
> like a workable short-term solution.

I guess I'll go back to my earlier question in reply:

How does having style branches (as well as updated schema and
specification releases) for every trivial (x.x.x) change help anyone?

What work will implementers (or even worse, users) have to do just to
accommodate this approach, and how would that work compare to what I'm
suggesting here (my guess is my suggestion is easier to implement)?

I think we're overloading the notion of a CSL version change to cover
too many issues.

Bruce

> Uncoupling the addition of new terms from schema updates also doesn't solve
> the current case where we add new terms for ordinals, since they require new
> logic in the CSL processor.
>
> Rintze
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 5:46 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Random thought:
>>
>> a) we simply don't consider the terms schema part of the same
>> versioning scheme, b) define how implementations should deal with
>> unknown terms, and c) leave it up to those implementations to keep
>> their locales files up to date (it's really not our job to worry about
>> that).
>>
>> Isn't that a viable, simple, approach?
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:58 PM, Rintze Zelle <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> > How would that work, exactly?
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:49 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I think your point probably suggests a solution: decouple style
>> >> versioning
>> >> from the evolution of a) the basic language, and b) things like
>> >> locales?
>> >>
>> >> On Aug 12, 2012 12:31 PM, "Rintze Zelle" <[hidden email]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> I welcome any suggestions to do it better.
>> >>>
>> >>> Rintze
>> >>>
>> >>> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:13 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Never replied to this. I understand this, but don't think it's a good
>> >>>> situation to be in.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Jul 24, 2012 10:45 PM, "Rintze Zelle" <[hidden email]>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 7:21 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]>
>> >>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Yeah, just to clarify, I thought we had previously agreed on plans
>> >>>>>> for
>> >>>>>> versioning, which effectively meant that we'd only consider style
>> >>>>>> branches
>> >>>>>> for major point releases.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> CSL 1.0.1 will be backward compatible, but won't be forward
>> >>>>> compatible.
>> >>>>> I.e., any valid CSL 1.0 style should work correctly with a CSL 1.0.1
>> >>>>> processor, but a CSL 1.0.1 style won't necessarily render correctly
>> >>>>> in a CSL
>> >>>>> 1.0 processor.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Take for instance the new "available at" term. CSL 1.0 clients that
>> >>>>> have shipped with CSL 1.0 locales won't have that term in their
>> >>>>> locale
>> >>>>> files, and any CSL 1.0.1 style that calls this term will at best
>> >>>>> render an
>> >>>>> empty string (unless that style happens to define the term with
>> >>>>> cs:locale).
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Another example is the Zotero Style Repository. If we introduce
>> >>>>> styles
>> >>>>> with CSL 1.0.1 features in the "master" branch, these styles will
>> >>>>> appear to
>> >>>>> be invalid in the Zotero Style Repository. Things would be much more
>> >>>>> robust
>> >>>>> if Zotero could just pull their 1.0 styles from a "1.0" branch, and
>> >>>>> move
>> >>>>> branches once they're ready for "1.0.1".
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> And, as you said above, branch are light-weight.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Rintze
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>>> Live Security Virtual Conference
>> >>>>> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>> >>>>> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond.
>> >>>>> Discussions
>> >>>>> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in
>> >>>>> malware
>> >>>>> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>> xbiblio-devel mailing list
>> >>>>> [hidden email]
>> >>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>> Live Security Virtual Conference
>> >>>> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>> >>>> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond.
>> >>>> Discussions
>> >>>> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in
>> >>>> malware
>> >>>> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> xbiblio-devel mailing list
>> >>>> [hidden email]
>> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> Live Security Virtual Conference
>> >>> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>> >>> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond.
>> >>> Discussions
>> >>> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in
>> >>> malware
>> >>> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> xbiblio-devel mailing list
>> >>> [hidden email]
>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Live Security Virtual Conference
>> >> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>> >> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond.
>> >> Discussions
>> >> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in
>> >> malware
>> >> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> xbiblio-devel mailing list
>> >> [hidden email]
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Live Security Virtual Conference
>> > Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>> > threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond.
>> > Discussions
>> > will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in
>> > malware
>> > threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > xbiblio-devel mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>> >
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Live Security Virtual Conference
>> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
>> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
>> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>> _______________________________________________
>> xbiblio-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Live Security Virtual Conference
> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
> _______________________________________________
> xbiblio-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
_______________________________________________
xbiblio-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: proposal: splitting off terms from core language [was Status page for style repository]

fbennett
On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 7:25 AM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 6:09 PM, Rintze Zelle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I have a hard time seeing any advantages of such an approach, but please
>> prove me wrong.
>>
>> When we introduce new terms, style authors should be confident that those
>> terms have translations in the locale files, and, AFAIK, none of the CSL
>> apps support automatic style updating, let alone locale updating.
>
> Well, that's their problem; how hard can it be?
>
> Mendeley guys? Zotero guys? Anyone else?

Bruce: I'm not quite sure what you're suggesting. Is the idea that
there would be one master styles repo, with the most recent release
version of each style, to be run with processors that groke the most
recent schema and locale releases? Or are you suggesting that style
version branches should only be cast at larger (schema) version
increments?

With respect to locale files, is the idea that a given schema version
should not have a declared dependency relation to a given locale
release? I don't see how you could avoid that and still keep things
working, but I may be missing your point.

Frank

>
>> Just dismissing that as being the problems of the implementations doesn't seem
>> like a workable short-term solution.
>
> I guess I'll go back to my earlier question in reply:
>
> How does having style branches (as well as updated schema and
> specification releases) for every trivial (x.x.x) change help anyone?
>
> What work will implementers (or even worse, users) have to do just to
> accommodate this approach, and how would that work compare to what I'm
> suggesting here (my guess is my suggestion is easier to implement)?
>
> I think we're overloading the notion of a CSL version change to cover
> too many issues.
>
> Bruce
>
>> Uncoupling the addition of new terms from schema updates also doesn't solve
>> the current case where we add new terms for ordinals, since they require new
>> logic in the CSL processor.
>>
>> Rintze
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 5:46 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Random thought:
>>>
>>> a) we simply don't consider the terms schema part of the same
>>> versioning scheme, b) define how implementations should deal with
>>> unknown terms, and c) leave it up to those implementations to keep
>>> their locales files up to date (it's really not our job to worry about
>>> that).
>>>
>>> Isn't that a viable, simple, approach?
>>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:58 PM, Rintze Zelle <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>> > How would that work, exactly?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:49 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> I think your point probably suggests a solution: decouple style
>>> >> versioning
>>> >> from the evolution of a) the basic language, and b) things like
>>> >> locales?
>>> >>
>>> >> On Aug 12, 2012 12:31 PM, "Rintze Zelle" <[hidden email]>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I welcome any suggestions to do it better.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Rintze
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:13 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]>
>>> >>> wrote:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Never replied to this. I understand this, but don't think it's a good
>>> >>>> situation to be in.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On Jul 24, 2012 10:45 PM, "Rintze Zelle" <[hidden email]>
>>> >>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 7:21 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]>
>>> >>>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Yeah, just to clarify, I thought we had previously agreed on plans
>>> >>>>>> for
>>> >>>>>> versioning, which effectively meant that we'd only consider style
>>> >>>>>> branches
>>> >>>>>> for major point releases.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> CSL 1.0.1 will be backward compatible, but won't be forward
>>> >>>>> compatible.
>>> >>>>> I.e., any valid CSL 1.0 style should work correctly with a CSL 1.0.1
>>> >>>>> processor, but a CSL 1.0.1 style won't necessarily render correctly
>>> >>>>> in a CSL
>>> >>>>> 1.0 processor.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Take for instance the new "available at" term. CSL 1.0 clients that
>>> >>>>> have shipped with CSL 1.0 locales won't have that term in their
>>> >>>>> locale
>>> >>>>> files, and any CSL 1.0.1 style that calls this term will at best
>>> >>>>> render an
>>> >>>>> empty string (unless that style happens to define the term with
>>> >>>>> cs:locale).
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Another example is the Zotero Style Repository. If we introduce
>>> >>>>> styles
>>> >>>>> with CSL 1.0.1 features in the "master" branch, these styles will
>>> >>>>> appear to
>>> >>>>> be invalid in the Zotero Style Repository. Things would be much more
>>> >>>>> robust
>>> >>>>> if Zotero could just pull their 1.0 styles from a "1.0" branch, and
>>> >>>>> move
>>> >>>>> branches once they're ready for "1.0.1".
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> And, as you said above, branch are light-weight.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Rintze
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>>>> Live Security Virtual Conference
>>> >>>>> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>>> >>>>> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond.
>>> >>>>> Discussions
>>> >>>>> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in
>>> >>>>> malware
>>> >>>>> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>>> xbiblio-devel mailing list
>>> >>>>> [hidden email]
>>> >>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>>> Live Security Virtual Conference
>>> >>>> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>>> >>>> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond.
>>> >>>> Discussions
>>> >>>> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in
>>> >>>> malware
>>> >>>> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>> xbiblio-devel mailing list
>>> >>>> [hidden email]
>>> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>> Live Security Virtual Conference
>>> >>> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>>> >>> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond.
>>> >>> Discussions
>>> >>> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in
>>> >>> malware
>>> >>> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> xbiblio-devel mailing list
>>> >>> [hidden email]
>>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> Live Security Virtual Conference
>>> >> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>>> >> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond.
>>> >> Discussions
>>> >> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in
>>> >> malware
>>> >> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> xbiblio-devel mailing list
>>> >> [hidden email]
>>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> > Live Security Virtual Conference
>>> > Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>>> > threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond.
>>> > Discussions
>>> > will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in
>>> > malware
>>> > threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > xbiblio-devel mailing list
>>> > [hidden email]
>>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Live Security Virtual Conference
>>> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>>> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
>>> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
>>> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> xbiblio-devel mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Live Security Virtual Conference
>> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
>> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
>> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>> _______________________________________________
>> xbiblio-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Live Security Virtual Conference
> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
> _______________________________________________
> xbiblio-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
_______________________________________________
xbiblio-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: proposal: splitting off terms from core language [was Status page for style repository]

Charles Parnot
My 2 cents on those different subjects, mostly from the perpspective of Papers:

- I like the idea of having a 'legacy' branch for styles compatible with the previous version of CSL, just to ease the transition; I don't think those branches should be maintained for very long (maybe a few weeks), but these would provide a way to fix any important issue with a specific style for clients that are still a version behind (for instance, we may decide to keep CSL 1.0 for a minor version release, and would like to make sure our styles are all good); for the sake of testing how this would work for future transitions, maybe it could be worth giving it a try with the 1.0 to 1.0.1 transition;

- I would tend to agree with Bruce that we don't need to tie the terms to a specific version of CSL; we update the locales at every update, and if a user wants to develop a new style with a just added term, well, they'll just have to wait a bit before it works in Papers; I think the gained flexibility is well worth the annoyance of getting client up to speed; locales would also probably the easiest ones to grab from the repository in a more automated fashion by the app

So I believe I agree with Rintze on the first point, and agree with Bruce on the second :-)

charles



On Aug 12, 2012, at 5:16 PM, Frank Bennett <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 7:25 AM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 6:09 PM, Rintze Zelle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> I have a hard time seeing any advantages of such an approach, but please
>>> prove me wrong.
>>>
>>> When we introduce new terms, style authors should be confident that those
>>> terms have translations in the locale files, and, AFAIK, none of the CSL
>>> apps support automatic style updating, let alone locale updating.
>>
>> Well, that's their problem; how hard can it be?
>>
>> Mendeley guys? Zotero guys? Anyone else?
>
> Bruce: I'm not quite sure what you're suggesting. Is the idea that
> there would be one master styles repo, with the most recent release
> version of each style, to be run with processors that groke the most
> recent schema and locale releases? Or are you suggesting that style
> version branches should only be cast at larger (schema) version
> increments?
>
> With respect to locale files, is the idea that a given schema version
> should not have a declared dependency relation to a given locale
> release? I don't see how you could avoid that and still keep things
> working, but I may be missing your point.
>
> Frank
>
>>
>>> Just dismissing that as being the problems of the implementations doesn't seem
>>> like a workable short-term solution.
>>
>> I guess I'll go back to my earlier question in reply:
>>
>> How does having style branches (as well as updated schema and
>> specification releases) for every trivial (x.x.x) change help anyone?
>>
>> What work will implementers (or even worse, users) have to do just to
>> accommodate this approach, and how would that work compare to what I'm
>> suggesting here (my guess is my suggestion is easier to implement)?
>>
>> I think we're overloading the notion of a CSL version change to cover
>> too many issues.
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>>> Uncoupling the addition of new terms from schema updates also doesn't solve
>>> the current case where we add new terms for ordinals, since they require new
>>> logic in the CSL processor.
>>>
>>> Rintze
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 5:46 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Random thought:
>>>>
>>>> a) we simply don't consider the terms schema part of the same
>>>> versioning scheme, b) define how implementations should deal with
>>>> unknown terms, and c) leave it up to those implementations to keep
>>>> their locales files up to date (it's really not our job to worry about
>>>> that).
>>>>
>>>> Isn't that a viable, simple, approach?
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:58 PM, Rintze Zelle <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> How would that work, exactly?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:49 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think your point probably suggests a solution: decouple style
>>>>>> versioning
>>>>>> from the evolution of a) the basic language, and b) things like
>>>>>> locales?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Aug 12, 2012 12:31 PM, "Rintze Zelle" <[hidden email]>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I welcome any suggestions to do it better.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rintze
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:13 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Never replied to this. I understand this, but don't think it's a good
>>>>>>>> situation to be in.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Jul 24, 2012 10:45 PM, "Rintze Zelle" <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 7:21 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, just to clarify, I thought we had previously agreed on plans
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> versioning, which effectively meant that we'd only consider style
>>>>>>>>>> branches
>>>>>>>>>> for major point releases.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> CSL 1.0.1 will be backward compatible, but won't be forward
>>>>>>>>> compatible.
>>>>>>>>> I.e., any valid CSL 1.0 style should work correctly with a CSL 1.0.1
>>>>>>>>> processor, but a CSL 1.0.1 style won't necessarily render correctly
>>>>>>>>> in a CSL
>>>>>>>>> 1.0 processor.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Take for instance the new "available at" term. CSL 1.0 clients that
>>>>>>>>> have shipped with CSL 1.0 locales won't have that term in their
>>>>>>>>> locale
>>>>>>>>> files, and any CSL 1.0.1 style that calls this term will at best
>>>>>>>>> render an
>>>>>>>>> empty string (unless that style happens to define the term with
>>>>>>>>> cs:locale).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Another example is the Zotero Style Repository. If we introduce
>>>>>>>>> styles
>>>>>>>>> with CSL 1.0.1 features in the "master" branch, these styles will
>>>>>>>>> appear to
>>>>>>>>> be invalid in the Zotero Style Repository. Things would be much more
>>>>>>>>> robust
>>>>>>>>> if Zotero could just pull their 1.0 styles from a "1.0" branch, and
>>>>>>>>> move
>>>>>>>>> branches once they're ready for "1.0.1".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And, as you said above, branch are light-weight.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Rintze
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> Live Security Virtual Conference
>>>>>>>>> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>>>>>>>>> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond.
>>>>>>>>> Discussions
>>>>>>>>> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in
>>>>>>>>> malware
>>>>>>>>> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> xbiblio-devel mailing list
>>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> Live Security Virtual Conference
>>>>>>>> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>>>>>>>> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond.
>>>>>>>> Discussions
>>>>>>>> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in
>>>>>>>> malware
>>>>>>>> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> xbiblio-devel mailing list
>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Live Security Virtual Conference
>>>>>>> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>>>>>>> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond.
>>>>>>> Discussions
>>>>>>> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in
>>>>>>> malware
>>>>>>> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> xbiblio-devel mailing list
>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Live Security Virtual Conference
>>>>>> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>>>>>> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond.
>>>>>> Discussions
>>>>>> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in
>>>>>> malware
>>>>>> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> xbiblio-devel mailing list
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Live Security Virtual Conference
>>>>> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>>>>> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond.
>>>>> Discussions
>>>>> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in
>>>>> malware
>>>>> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> xbiblio-devel mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Live Security Virtual Conference
>>>> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>>>> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
>>>> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
>>>> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> xbiblio-devel mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Live Security Virtual Conference
>>> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>>> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
>>> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
>>> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> xbiblio-devel mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Live Security Virtual Conference
>> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
>> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
>> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>> _______________________________________________
>> xbiblio-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Live Security Virtual Conference
> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
> _______________________________________________
> xbiblio-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel

--
Charles Parnot
[hidden email]
twitter: @cparnot
http://mekentosj.com



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
_______________________________________________
xbiblio-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: proposal: splitting off terms from core language [was Status page for style repository]

rmzelle
Administrator
On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 1:09 AM, Charles Parnot <[hidden email]> wrote:
- I would tend to agree with Bruce that we don't need to tie the terms to a specific version of CSL; we update the locales at every update, and if a user wants to develop a new style with a just added term, well, they'll just have to wait a bit before it works in Papers; I think the gained flexibility is well worth the annoyance of getting client up to speed; locales would also probably the easiest ones to grab from the repository in a more automated fashion by the app

There are very few cases where new terms are introduced by themselves, though. In most cases they are accompanied by new variables, or new logic in the CSL processor. If the goal is to make CSL development more agile, then there are other ways to do that.

Also, it's clear that most changes to CSL don't receive very close scrutiny from all parties involved at the time they are developed (which I can understand, as following everything takes quite a bit of time). But because of that, capturing all changes to CSL into versioned releases, and creating review periods (like the one we're in right now for 1.0.1) gives me some peace of mind, as it provides short time frames where I ask people for their attention.

Rintze

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
_______________________________________________
xbiblio-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: proposal: splitting off terms from core language [was Status page for style repository]

Bruce D'Arcus-3
In reply to this post by fbennett
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 8:16 PM, Frank Bennett <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 7:25 AM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 6:09 PM, Rintze Zelle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> I have a hard time seeing any advantages of such an approach, but please
>>> prove me wrong.
>>>
>>> When we introduce new terms, style authors should be confident that those
>>> terms have translations in the locale files, and, AFAIK, none of the CSL
>>> apps support automatic style updating, let alone locale updating.
>>
>> Well, that's their problem; how hard can it be?
>>
>> Mendeley guys? Zotero guys? Anyone else?
>
> Bruce: I'm not quite sure what you're suggesting. Is the idea that
> there would be one master styles repo, with the most recent release
> version of each style, to be run with processors that groke the most
> recent schema and locale releases? Or are you suggesting that style
> version branches should only be cast at larger (schema) version
> increments?

The latter.

> With respect to locale files, is the idea that a given schema version
> should not have a declared dependency relation to a given locale
> release? I don't see how you could avoid that and still keep things
> working, but I may be missing your point.

I'm not sure of the precise details yet, except to say that we
decouple locales from core schema. It could be that locates get a
separate versioning scheme (maybe by date?).

Bruce

> Frank
>
>>
>>> Just dismissing that as being the problems of the implementations doesn't seem
>>> like a workable short-term solution.
>>
>> I guess I'll go back to my earlier question in reply:
>>
>> How does having style branches (as well as updated schema and
>> specification releases) for every trivial (x.x.x) change help anyone?
>>
>> What work will implementers (or even worse, users) have to do just to
>> accommodate this approach, and how would that work compare to what I'm
>> suggesting here (my guess is my suggestion is easier to implement)?
>>
>> I think we're overloading the notion of a CSL version change to cover
>> too many issues.
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>>> Uncoupling the addition of new terms from schema updates also doesn't solve
>>> the current case where we add new terms for ordinals, since they require new
>>> logic in the CSL processor.
>>>
>>> Rintze
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 5:46 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Random thought:
>>>>
>>>> a) we simply don't consider the terms schema part of the same
>>>> versioning scheme, b) define how implementations should deal with
>>>> unknown terms, and c) leave it up to those implementations to keep
>>>> their locales files up to date (it's really not our job to worry about
>>>> that).
>>>>
>>>> Isn't that a viable, simple, approach?
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:58 PM, Rintze Zelle <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> > How would that work, exactly?
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:49 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]>
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I think your point probably suggests a solution: decouple style
>>>> >> versioning
>>>> >> from the evolution of a) the basic language, and b) things like
>>>> >> locales?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Aug 12, 2012 12:31 PM, "Rintze Zelle" <[hidden email]>
>>>> >> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I welcome any suggestions to do it better.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Rintze
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:13 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]>
>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Never replied to this. I understand this, but don't think it's a good
>>>> >>>> situation to be in.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> On Jul 24, 2012 10:45 PM, "Rintze Zelle" <[hidden email]>
>>>> >>>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 7:21 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]>
>>>> >>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> Yeah, just to clarify, I thought we had previously agreed on plans
>>>> >>>>>> for
>>>> >>>>>> versioning, which effectively meant that we'd only consider style
>>>> >>>>>> branches
>>>> >>>>>> for major point releases.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> CSL 1.0.1 will be backward compatible, but won't be forward
>>>> >>>>> compatible.
>>>> >>>>> I.e., any valid CSL 1.0 style should work correctly with a CSL 1.0.1
>>>> >>>>> processor, but a CSL 1.0.1 style won't necessarily render correctly
>>>> >>>>> in a CSL
>>>> >>>>> 1.0 processor.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Take for instance the new "available at" term. CSL 1.0 clients that
>>>> >>>>> have shipped with CSL 1.0 locales won't have that term in their
>>>> >>>>> locale
>>>> >>>>> files, and any CSL 1.0.1 style that calls this term will at best
>>>> >>>>> render an
>>>> >>>>> empty string (unless that style happens to define the term with
>>>> >>>>> cs:locale).
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Another example is the Zotero Style Repository. If we introduce
>>>> >>>>> styles
>>>> >>>>> with CSL 1.0.1 features in the "master" branch, these styles will
>>>> >>>>> appear to
>>>> >>>>> be invalid in the Zotero Style Repository. Things would be much more
>>>> >>>>> robust
>>>> >>>>> if Zotero could just pull their 1.0 styles from a "1.0" branch, and
>>>> >>>>> move
>>>> >>>>> branches once they're ready for "1.0.1".
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> And, as you said above, branch are light-weight.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Rintze
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >>>>> Live Security Virtual Conference
>>>> >>>>> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>>>> >>>>> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond.
>>>> >>>>> Discussions
>>>> >>>>> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in
>>>> >>>>> malware
>>>> >>>>> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>>>> xbiblio-devel mailing list
>>>> >>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> >>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >>>> Live Security Virtual Conference
>>>> >>>> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>>>> >>>> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond.
>>>> >>>> Discussions
>>>> >>>> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in
>>>> >>>> malware
>>>> >>>> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>>> xbiblio-devel mailing list
>>>> >>>> [hidden email]
>>>> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >>> Live Security Virtual Conference
>>>> >>> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>>>> >>> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond.
>>>> >>> Discussions
>>>> >>> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in
>>>> >>> malware
>>>> >>> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> xbiblio-devel mailing list
>>>> >>> [hidden email]
>>>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >> Live Security Virtual Conference
>>>> >> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>>>> >> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond.
>>>> >> Discussions
>>>> >> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in
>>>> >> malware
>>>> >> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> xbiblio-devel mailing list
>>>> >> [hidden email]
>>>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> > Live Security Virtual Conference
>>>> > Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>>>> > threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond.
>>>> > Discussions
>>>> > will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in
>>>> > malware
>>>> > threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > xbiblio-devel mailing list
>>>> > [hidden email]
>>>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Live Security Virtual Conference
>>>> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>>>> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
>>>> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
>>>> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> xbiblio-devel mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Live Security Virtual Conference
>>> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>>> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
>>> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
>>> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> xbiblio-devel mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Live Security Virtual Conference
>> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
>> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
>> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>> _______________________________________________
>> xbiblio-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Live Security Virtual Conference
> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
> _______________________________________________
> xbiblio-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
_______________________________________________
xbiblio-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: proposal: splitting off terms from core language [was Status page for style repository]

fbennett
On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 8:19 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 8:16 PM, Frank Bennett <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 7:25 AM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 6:09 PM, Rintze Zelle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have a hard time seeing any advantages of such an approach, but please
>>>> prove me wrong.
>>>>
>>>> When we introduce new terms, style authors should be confident that those
>>>> terms have translations in the locale files, and, AFAIK, none of the CSL
>>>> apps support automatic style updating, let alone locale updating.
>>>
>>> Well, that's their problem; how hard can it be?
>>>
>>> Mendeley guys? Zotero guys? Anyone else?
>>
>> Bruce: I'm not quite sure what you're suggesting. Is the idea that
>> there would be one master styles repo, with the most recent release
>> version of each style, to be run with processors that groke the most
>> recent schema and locale releases? Or are you suggesting that style
>> version branches should only be cast at larger (schema) version
>> increments?
>
> The latter.

Some of the changes in processor logic this time around are pretty
significant, and tightly tied to specific changes in the locale. What
determines the size of the increment in this case? Is the issue the
number assigned to the release, or the degree of change in CSL?

>
>> With respect to locale files, is the idea that a given schema version
>> should not have a declared dependency relation to a given locale
>> release? I don't see how you could avoid that and still keep things
>> working, but I may be missing your point.
>
> I'm not sure of the precise details yet, except to say that we
> decouple locales from core schema. It could be that locates get a
> separate versioning scheme (maybe by date?).

So long as we have specific guidance on version dependencies for the
release, the numbering scheme could be anything, I guess. It would be
easier to follow if the branch numbers under schema, locales and
styles were aligned, though.


>
> Bruce
>
>> Frank
>>
>>>
>>>> Just dismissing that as being the problems of the implementations doesn't seem
>>>> like a workable short-term solution.
>>>
>>> I guess I'll go back to my earlier question in reply:
>>>
>>> How does having style branches (as well as updated schema and
>>> specification releases) for every trivial (x.x.x) change help anyone?
>>>
>>> What work will implementers (or even worse, users) have to do just to
>>> accommodate this approach, and how would that work compare to what I'm
>>> suggesting here (my guess is my suggestion is easier to implement)?
>>>
>>> I think we're overloading the notion of a CSL version change to cover
>>> too many issues.
>>>
>>> Bruce
>>>
>>>> Uncoupling the addition of new terms from schema updates also doesn't solve
>>>> the current case where we add new terms for ordinals, since they require new
>>>> logic in the CSL processor.
>>>>
>>>> Rintze
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 5:46 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Random thought:
>>>>>
>>>>> a) we simply don't consider the terms schema part of the same
>>>>> versioning scheme, b) define how implementations should deal with
>>>>> unknown terms, and c) leave it up to those implementations to keep
>>>>> their locales files up to date (it's really not our job to worry about
>>>>> that).
>>>>>
>>>>> Isn't that a viable, simple, approach?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:58 PM, Rintze Zelle <[hidden email]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> > How would that work, exactly?
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:49 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]>
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> I think your point probably suggests a solution: decouple style
>>>>> >> versioning
>>>>> >> from the evolution of a) the basic language, and b) things like
>>>>> >> locales?
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> On Aug 12, 2012 12:31 PM, "Rintze Zelle" <[hidden email]>
>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> I welcome any suggestions to do it better.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Rintze
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:13 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]>
>>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> Never replied to this. I understand this, but don't think it's a good
>>>>> >>>> situation to be in.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> On Jul 24, 2012 10:45 PM, "Rintze Zelle" <[hidden email]>
>>>>> >>>> wrote:
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 7:21 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]>
>>>>> >>>>> wrote:
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> Yeah, just to clarify, I thought we had previously agreed on plans
>>>>> >>>>>> for
>>>>> >>>>>> versioning, which effectively meant that we'd only consider style
>>>>> >>>>>> branches
>>>>> >>>>>> for major point releases.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> CSL 1.0.1 will be backward compatible, but won't be forward
>>>>> >>>>> compatible.
>>>>> >>>>> I.e., any valid CSL 1.0 style should work correctly with a CSL 1.0.1
>>>>> >>>>> processor, but a CSL 1.0.1 style won't necessarily render correctly
>>>>> >>>>> in a CSL
>>>>> >>>>> 1.0 processor.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> Take for instance the new "available at" term. CSL 1.0 clients that
>>>>> >>>>> have shipped with CSL 1.0 locales won't have that term in their
>>>>> >>>>> locale
>>>>> >>>>> files, and any CSL 1.0.1 style that calls this term will at best
>>>>> >>>>> render an
>>>>> >>>>> empty string (unless that style happens to define the term with
>>>>> >>>>> cs:locale).
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> Another example is the Zotero Style Repository. If we introduce
>>>>> >>>>> styles
>>>>> >>>>> with CSL 1.0.1 features in the "master" branch, these styles will
>>>>> >>>>> appear to
>>>>> >>>>> be invalid in the Zotero Style Repository. Things would be much more
>>>>> >>>>> robust
>>>>> >>>>> if Zotero could just pull their 1.0 styles from a "1.0" branch, and
>>>>> >>>>> move
>>>>> >>>>> branches once they're ready for "1.0.1".
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> And, as you said above, branch are light-weight.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> Rintze
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> >>>>> Live Security Virtual Conference
>>>>> >>>>> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>>>>> >>>>> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond.
>>>>> >>>>> Discussions
>>>>> >>>>> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in
>>>>> >>>>> malware
>>>>> >>>>> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>>>> xbiblio-devel mailing list
>>>>> >>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> >>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> >>>> Live Security Virtual Conference
>>>>> >>>> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>>>>> >>>> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond.
>>>>> >>>> Discussions
>>>>> >>>> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in
>>>>> >>>> malware
>>>>> >>>> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>>> xbiblio-devel mailing list
>>>>> >>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> >>> Live Security Virtual Conference
>>>>> >>> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>>>>> >>> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond.
>>>>> >>> Discussions
>>>>> >>> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in
>>>>> >>> malware
>>>>> >>> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>> xbiblio-devel mailing list
>>>>> >>> [hidden email]
>>>>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> >> Live Security Virtual Conference
>>>>> >> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>>>>> >> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond.
>>>>> >> Discussions
>>>>> >> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in
>>>>> >> malware
>>>>> >> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >> xbiblio-devel mailing list
>>>>> >> [hidden email]
>>>>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> > Live Security Virtual Conference
>>>>> > Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>>>>> > threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond.
>>>>> > Discussions
>>>>> > will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in
>>>>> > malware
>>>>> > threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > xbiblio-devel mailing list
>>>>> > [hidden email]
>>>>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Live Security Virtual Conference
>>>>> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>>>>> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
>>>>> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
>>>>> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> xbiblio-devel mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Live Security Virtual Conference
>>>> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>>>> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
>>>> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
>>>> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> xbiblio-devel mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Live Security Virtual Conference
>>> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>>> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
>>> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
>>> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> xbiblio-devel mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Live Security Virtual Conference
>> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
>> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
>> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>> _______________________________________________
>> xbiblio-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Live Security Virtual Conference
> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
> _______________________________________________
> xbiblio-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Live Security Virtual Conference
Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
_______________________________________________
xbiblio-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel